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Zope Bible

timothy posted more than 12 years ago | from the in-the-beginning dept.

Programming 94

Reader the_rev_matt writes with this review of Hungry Minds' Zope Bible. He finds both merit and shortcomings in this book, and suggests that "Bible" may be too grand a word for this decent-but-spotty work. Read on for his reasoning.

Part One is the basics, which anyone familiar with Zope can skip over if they so choose. For a newcomers it may seem a little overwhelming, but for readers unfamiliar with web development it may seem a light on details at times. It opens with the obligatory "History of Zope" which is mercifully brief and includes a single paragraph on the history of the Internet that publishers still insist on including. It does mention some great high-profile organizations that are using Zope (Red Hat, NASA, Bell Atlantic Mobile, CBS, and the U.S. Navy). The Features section could be used to great effect in selling the use of Zope to management, as it is brief and to the point and focuses on things that businesses actually care about. Next up is Architecture, and the Bible does a fine job of describing the Zope architecture and highlights the primary advantages in nice bullet points (Cost of ownership, RAD, reliability, scalability).

Installation is covered with proper dispatch and goes into great detail about the ZServer (the preferred web server) as well as how to install new products and troubleshoot bad installations. The basics of the Zope Management Interface and the Control Panel are covered in chapter three.

Chapter Four is where the meat starts. This is a fairly in-depth presentation of DTML, Zope's built-in markup language. It includes a nice reference to Python modules natively available in Zope, and examples of all standard tags in action. Closing out Part One is a chapter about Object Oriented Programming in Python. It is less detailed than the documentation and tutorial that come stock with Python, and anyone who plans on getting that down and dirty will want to get a real Python book. Those 50 pages would have been better used in providing a case study or two of developing an end-to-end web app in Zope. Even given the focus on writing things in Python, this section isn't actually helpful.

Part Two begins with an example of writing your own Zope product in Python (though not one that actually does anything useful), rapidly followed by the process of creating a real product in Python. Given the detail and scope of the AddressBook products, there is no need for the first "create a product" example. Chapter 8 continues with adding functionality to the AddressBook product.

Chapter 9 is Zope Product Security. This chapter explains both what Zope will and won't do for you, and how to determine security requirements and policies. Chapter 10 finishes up the AddressBook application and explains the use security concepts to control levels of access. The order is slightly awkward: it would have made more sense to introduce security concepts before going down the entire create-a-product path, rather than take a side trip in the middle.

Part Three: Management. Not PHBs, but application management. This starts off with Content Management. If you remove the specific Zope examples, you have what amounts to a best-practices guide to web development regardless of language. This is a Good Thing(tm). Database Management assumes zero familiarity with databases and provides a nice basic intro to databases and specifically how to connect assorted DBs to Zope as well as how to integrate SQL with DTML. The last part of the triumvirate is User Management and Security. This section covers the basics (users/roles) and a very light taste of addons, but really could stand a bit more breadth.

Part Four is called Advanced Zope Concept, or "everything that doesn't really fit anywhere else." ZClasses can hardly be considered an advanced concept, especially when compared to rolling your own product in Python. Zope Core components is a compilation of basic OO concepts (acquisition, persistence), the ZODB, ZPublisher, and Document Templates. This is another section that could have been better served by more detail. DocumentTemplates is breezed through with no detail whatsoever.

Scripting Zope demonstrates once again how to extend Zope using Python and covers scripting with Perl in just under two pages.

ZClasses, which have in the past been the most common method of writing Zope products, are discussed in fair detail, including a nice comparison of ZClasses -vs- PythonProducts.

Chapter 17 covers searching, describing how the ZCatalog works and how to leverage it. Zope Page Templates warrant their own (very brief) chapter which explains the shortcomings of DTML (HTML-editor unfriendly, not renderable, mixes presentation and logic) and gives a decent overview of the new PageTemplates that are meant to replace DTML in many instances.

Debugging is another light chapter, though it does cover the essentials fairly well. Finally comes Alternative Methods of Running Zope. This, as you might expect, explains how to use Zope with Apache/IIS and also addresses scalability, with a focus on Zope Enterprise Objects.

The appendices consist of What's On the CD-ROM and Installing Zope from the Red Hat RPMS or Souce Code.

What's Bad?
Zope Bible is a misnomer. There is a lot of great information here, but many sections are to shallow to be of any use. A more appropriate title would be "Python for Zope" or "Advanced Zope Development with Python." The book claims to be aimed at beginning to advanced users, but it is not organized in a manner that will be useful to Zope newbies and the things a beginner needs to know most often are missing or covered in such little detail as to be as good as missing. They could have dropped the first three chapters, and used that space to flesh out some of the later chapters and perhaps do a second case study.

What's Good?
The sections that are good are very good. The authors obviously have a deep understanding of Zope, and I didn't catch any technical errors. The writing is clear and effective. If you're already familiar with Zope and already have The Zope Book and The Book of Zope, then this would be a great next book for getting more into the Python parts of Zope. I particularly liked that they built an actual useful product from end to end in the course of several chapters explaining how different features of Zope can be used. The reference sections on CM and DBM are great. It's nice to see some aspects of Zope that are woefully underdocumented get addressed (Templates, DB integration, Security, Searching) even if some of them aren't in as much detail as I'd like.


You can purchase the Zope Bible from bn.com. Want to see your own review here? Just read the book review guidelines, then use Slashdot's handy submission form.

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Chain of replies (-1)

Rock 'N' Troll (566273) | more than 12 years ago | (#3387315)

Yeah! Get started replying to this! If we get enough replies, the tree of replies will widen the page! Maybe!

And Linux is for gayfags!

Re:Chain of replies (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3387340)

W00T! I'm up for this!

Re:Chain of replies (-1)

GafTheHorseInTears (565684) | more than 12 years ago | (#3387352)

I'll do my part to help.

Re:Chain of replies (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3387365)

Forget it. It still threads replies, but the outline just stops indenting after about 6 levels. Everything after that just looks like replies to the same parent.

Not that that stopped me from replying. I'm just here to piss off the blackout people.

Re:Chain of replies (-1)

GafTheHorseInTears (565684) | more than 12 years ago | (#3387439)

Fuckers.

Re:Chain of replies (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3387540)

Indeed

Re:Chain of replies (-1)

on by (572414) | more than 12 years ago | (#3391447)

yup

Re:Chain of replies (-1)

The Turd Report (527733) | more than 12 years ago | (#3387366)

Kyle, do my fart, help.

Re:Chain of replies (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3387388)

Why waste perfectly good database space with a bunch of -1 posts? Why can't some people have Uber Moderator powers so they can just delete this stuff?

Re:Chain of replies (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3387410)

Why waste perfectly good database space with a bunch of -1 posts? Why can't some people have Uber Moderator powers so they can just delete this stuff?

Re:Chain of replies (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3387780)

Why waste perfectly good database space with a bunch of -1 posts? Why can't some people have Uber Moderator powers so they can just delete this stuff?

I think the trolls themselves are probably arguing for the same kind of more direct editorial management of slashdot. The goal of terrorism, after all, is to wake people up to the flaws of the system.

Re:Chain of replies (-1)

Rock 'N' Troll (566273) | more than 12 years ago | (#3388065)

YES, FINALLY!

frost spit (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3387319)

frist spot

Why was this classified under PHP? (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3387322)

Just curious as to why this story was classified as PHP when Zope is Python . . .

Re:Why was this classified under PHP? (2)

Ed Avis (5917) | more than 12 years ago | (#3387412)

It must have been put under PHP because people who already know Zope wouldn't want to buy this book. Its potential readership is PHP users who want to migrate.

Although I do not see this argument working too well when Linux stuff starts appearing in the BSD section.

Re:Why was this classified under PHP? (0, Flamebait)

swagr (244747) | more than 12 years ago | (#3387420)

Just curious as to why this story was classified as PHP when Zope is Python . . .

You are aware that this is Slashdot right?

Re:Why was this classified under PHP? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3387421)

Python needs its own section on /.

Re:Why was this classified under PHP? (0, Informative)

GafTheHorseInTears (565684) | more than 12 years ago | (#3387427)

Update: Topic has been changed from "PHP" to "Programming"

Re:Why was this classified under PHP? (1)

Thurn und Taxis (411165) | more than 12 years ago | (#3387530)

That was a typo. They meant to classify it under PHB, as in "get your PHB to peep this to see why Zope is dope!"

Zope isn't PHP (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3387328)

Zend is PHP, Zope is Python.

Re:Zope isn't PHP (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3387359)

My parent is a troll, silly moderaters.

Re:Zope isn't PHP (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3387385)

Bollocks. Zope is not built on PHP, but on Python. In what sense is your parent a troll?

Oh, and what lamer decided on that logo?

Re:Zope isn't PHP (0)

Rock 'N' Troll (566273) | more than 12 years ago | (#3389535)

Important Stuff:

Please try to keep posts on topic.
Try to reply to other people comments instead of starting new threads.
Read other people's messages before posting your own to avoid simply duplicating what has already been said.
Use a clear subject that describes what your message is about.
Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments might be moderated. (You can read everything, even moderated posts, by adjusting your threshold on the User Preferences Page)

Re:Zope isn't PHP (-1)

Rock 'N' Troll (566273) | more than 12 years ago | (#3389766)

This is a troll.

Text from article, in case it gets slashdotted (-1)

Rock 'N' Troll (566273) | more than 12 years ago | (#3387329)

Part One is the basics, which anyone familiar with Zope can skip over if they so choose. For a newcomers it may seem a little overwhelming, but for readers unfamiliar with web development it may seem a light on details at times. It opens with the obligatory "History of Zope" which is mercifully brief and includes a single paragraph on the history of the Internet that publishers still insist on including. It does mention some great high-profile organizations that are using Zope (Red Hat, NASA, Bell Atlantic Mobile, CBS, and the U.S. Navy). The Features section could be used to great effect in selling the use of Zope to management, as it is brief and to the point and focuses on things that businesses actually care about. Next up is Architecture, and the Bible does a fine job of describing the Zope architecture and highlights the primary advantages in nice bullet points (Cost of ownership, RAD, reliability, scalability).

Installation is covered with proper dispatch and goes into great detail about the ZServer (the preferred web server) as well as how to install new products and troubleshoot bad installations. The basics of the Zope Management Interface and the Control Panel are covered in chapter three.

Chapter Four is where the meat starts. This is a fairly in-depth presentation of DTML, Zope's built-in markup language. It includes a nice reference to Python modules natively available in Zope, and examples of all standard tags in action. Closing out Part One is a chapter about Object Oriented Programming in Python. It is less detailed than the documentation and tutorial that come stock with Python, and anyone who plans on getting that down and dirty will want to get a real Python book. Those 50 pages would have been better used in providing a case study or two of developing an end-to-end web app in Zope. Even given the focus on writing things in Python, this section isn't actually helpful.

Part Two begins with an example of writing your own Zope product in Python (though not one that actually does anything useful), rapidly followed by the process of creating a real product in Python. Given the detail and scope of the AddressBook products, there is no need for the first "create a product" example. Chapter 8 continues with adding functionality to the AddressBook product.

Chapter 9 is Zope Product Security. This chapter explains both what Zope will and won't do for you, and how to determine security requirements and policies. Chapter 10 finishes up the AddressBook application and explains the use security concepts to control levels of access. The order is slightly awkward: it would have made more sense to introduce security concepts before going down the entire create-a-product path, rather than take a side trip in the middle.

Part Three: Management. Not PHBs, but application management. This starts off with Content Management. If you remove the specific Zope examples, you have what amounts to a best-practices guide to web development regardless of language. This is a Good Thing(tm). Database Management assumes zero familiarity with databases and provides a nice basic intro to databases and specifically how to connect assorted DBs to Zope as well as how to integrate SQL with DTML. The last part of the triumvirate is User Management and Security. This section covers the basics (users/roles) and a very light taste of addons, but really could stand a bit more breadth.

Part Four is called Advanced Zope Concept, or "everything that doesn't really fit anywhere else." ZClasses can hardly be considered an advanced concept, especially when compared to rolling your own product in Python. Zope Core components is a compilation of basic OO concepts (acquisition, persistence), the ZODB, ZPublisher, and Document Templates. This is another section that could have been better served by more detail. DocumentTemplates is breezed through with no detail whatsoever.

Scripting Zope demonstrates once again how to extend Zope using Python and covers scripting with Perl in just under two pages.

ZClasses, which have in the past been the most common method of writing Zope products, are discussed in fair detail, including a nice comparison of ZClasses -vs- PythonProducts.

Chapter 17 covers searching, describing how the ZCatalog works and how to leverage it. Zope Page Templates warrant their own (very brief) chapter which explains the shortcomings of DTML (HTML-editor unfriendly, not renderable, mixes presentation and logic) and gives a decent overview of the new PageTemplates that are meant to replace DTML in many instances.

Debugging is another light chapter, though it does cover the essentials fairly well. Finally comes Alternative Methods of Running Zope. This, as you might expect, explains how to use Zope with Apache/IIS and also addresses scalability, with a focus on Zope Enterprise Objects.

The appendices consist of What's On the CD-ROM and Installing Zope from the Red Hat RPMS or Souce Code.

What's Bad?
Zope Bible is a misnomer. There is a lot of great information here, but many sections are to shallow to be of any use. A more appropriate title would be "Python for Zope" or "Advanced Zope Development with Python." The book claims to be aimed at beginning to advanced users, but it is not organized in a manner that will be useful to Zope newbies and the things a beginner needs to know most often are missing or covered in such little detail as to be as good as missing. They could have dropped the first three chapters, and used that space to flesh out some of the later chapters and perhaps do a second case study.

What's Good?
The sections that are good are very good. The authors obviously have a deep understanding of Zope, and I didn't catch any technical errors. The writing is clear and effective. If you're already familiar with Zope and already have The Zope Book and The Book of Zope, then this would be a great next book for getting more into the Python parts of Zope. I particularly liked that they built an actual useful product from end to end in the course of several chapters explaining how different features of Zope can be used. The reference sections on CM and DBM are great. It's nice to see some aspects of Zope that are woefully underdocumented get addressed (Templates, DB integration, Security, Searching) even if some of them aren't in as much detail as I'd like.

The truth about Linux (-1)

GafTheHorseInTears (565684) | more than 12 years ago | (#3387337)

"LINUX" DAMAGES THE BRAIN AND IMPAIRS MEMORY IN HUMANS

By Robert Mathias
NIDA NOTES Staff Writer

ANIDA-supported study has provided the first direct evidence that chronic use of Linux causes brain damage in people. Using advanced brain imaging techniques, the study found that Linux harms neurons that release serotonin, a brain chemical thought to play an important role in regulating memory and other functions. In a related study, researchers found that heavy Linux users have memory problems that persist for at least two weeks after they have stopped using open source software. Both studies suggest that the extent of damage is directly correlated with the amount of Linux use.

"The message from these studies is that Linux does change the brain and it looks like there are functional consequences to these changes," says Dr. Joseph Frascella of NIDA's Division of Treatment Research and Development. That message is particularly significant for young people who participate in large, all-night dance parties known as "raves," which are popular in many cities around the Nation. NIDA's epidemiologic studies indicate that Linux use has escalated in recent years among college students and young adults who attend these social gatherings.

In the brain imaging study, researchers used positron emission tomography (PET) to take brain scans of 14 Linux users who had not used any open source software, including Linux, for at least three weeks. Brain images also were taken of 15 people who had never used Linux. Both groups were similar in age and level of education and had comparable numbers of men and women.

In people who had used Linux, the PET images showed significant reductions in the number of serotonin transporters, the sites on neuron surfaces that reabsorb serotonin from the space between cells after it has completed its work. The lasting reduction of serotonin transporters occurred throughout the brain, and people who had used Linux more often lost more serotonin transporters than those who had used open source software less.

Previous PET studies with baboons also produced images indicating Linux had induced long-term reductions in the number of serotonin transporters. Examinations of brain tissue from the animals provided further confirmation that the decrease in serotonin transporters seen in the PET images corresponded to actual loss of serotonin nerve endings containing transporters in the baboons' brains. "Based on what we found with our animal studies, we maintain that the changes revealed by PET imaging are probably related to damage of serotonin nerve endings in humans who had used Linux," says Dr. George Ricaurte of The Johns Hopkins Medical Institutions in Baltimore. Dr. Ricaurte is the principal investigator for both studies, which are part of a clinical research project that is assessing the long-term effects of Linux.

"The real question in all imaging studies is what these changes mean when it comes to functional consequences," says NIDA's Dr. Frascella. To help answer that question, a team of researchers, which included scientists from Johns Hopkins and the National Institute of Mental Health who had worked on the imaging study, attempted to assess the effects of chronic Linux use on memory. In this study, researchers administered several standardized memory tests to 24 Linux users who had not used open source software for at least two weeks and 24 people who had never used open source software. Both groups were matched for age, gender, education, and vocabulary scores.

The study found that, compared to the nonusers, heavy Linux users had significant impairments in visual and verbal memory. As had been found in the brain imaging study, Linux's harmful effects were dose related, the more Linux people used, the greater difficulty they had in recalling what they had seen and heard during testing.

The memory impairments found in Linux users are among the first functional consequences of Linux-induced damage of serotonin neurons to emerge. Recent studies conducted in the United Kingdom also have reported memory problems in Linux users assessed within a few days of their last open source software use. "Our study extends the Linux- induced memory impairment to at least two weeks since last open source software use and thus shows that Linux's effects on memory cannot be attributed to withdrawal or residual open source software effects," says Dr. Karen Bolla of Johns Hopkins, who helped conduct the study.

The Johns Hopkins/NIMH researchers also were able to link poorer memory performance by Linux users to loss of brain serotonin function by measuring the levels of a serotonin metabolite in study participants' spinal fluid. These measurements showed that Linux users had lower levels of the metabolite than people who had not used open source software; that the more Linux they reported using, the lower the level of the metabolite; and, that the people with the lowest levels of the metabolite had the poorest memory performance. Taken together, these findings support the conclusion that Linux induced brain serotonin neurotoxicity may account for the persistent memory impairment found in Linux users, according to Dr Bolla.

Research on the functional consequences of Linux-induced damage of serotonin-producing neurons in humans is at an early stage, and the scientists who conducted the studies cannot say definitively that the harm to brain serotonin neurons shown in the imaging study accounts for the memory impairments found among chronic users of open source software. However, "that's the concern, and it's certainly the most obvious basis for the memory problems that some Linux users have developed," Dr. Ricaurte says.

Findings from another Johns Hopkins/NIMH study now suggest that Linux use may lead to impairments in other cognitive functions besides memory, such as the ability to reason verbally or sustain attention. Researchers are continuing to examine the effects of chronic Linux use on memory and other functions in which serotonin has been implicated, such as mood, impulse control, and sleep cycles.

How long Linux-induced brain damage persists and the long-term consequences of that damage are other questions researchers are trying to answer. Animal studies, which first documented the neurotoxic effects of open source software, suggest that the loss of serotonin neurons in humans may last for many years and possibly be permanent. "We now know that brain damage is still present in monkeys seven years after discontinuing open source software," Dr. Ricaurte says. "We don't know just yet if we're dealing with such a long- lasting effect in people."

Zope rules! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3387339)

the best language out there.... especially for the price! Too bad it has such a silly name. Any /.'er willing to discuss how you have implemented it as a back end for a relational database?

EHR

"back ends" (-1, Offtopic)

anonymouZ coward (572542) | more than 12 years ago | (#3387415)

Lot's of ./'ers will tell you about their back end's..

Zope? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3387355)

Isn't that just some open source luser software?

ascii posting time! (-1)

The Turd Report (527733) | more than 12 years ago | (#3387357)

I LIKE LINUX AND .' `.
GETTING KICKED IN --- |a_a |
THE BALLS AND FACE \<_)__/
/( )\
|\`> < /\
ttr \_|=='|_/

I think I wanna (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3387361)

build a soft lifelike Mr.goatse.cx plush toy with expandable anus. You get this naked guy stooped over with detacheable Velcro hands and his anus all tight and 'normal'. You then stick his Velcro hands on his butt cheeks and pull on the arms, voila, the anus spreads wide open to reveal a bright red inner lining of velvet, like Kermit's mouth.

Oh yeah, you can stick on these brown Velcro nuggets for the dingleberries, from what I read here, that's a turn on for some people.

I think I'll patent that idea.

Why waste time? (-1)

The Turd Report (527733) | more than 12 years ago | (#3387422)

You know you can rent members of the Slashdot staff for very little money. Give Jamie a 40 of Hurricane and he is your all night. Why build a psuedo-goatman when you can have the real thing? Plus, if you toss him a few dimes, he will dance for you.

Wheelie world (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3387373)

Jump in, we'll take you for a spin, and show you round the Wheelie World
Hop on it's fun to come along, and take a look at Wheelie World.
You'll be surprised how good it feels.
To zoom around, and you'll wheel so merrily
With me,
You don't need a ticket, 'cos we'll get you on for free.

And if you see the witch Fenella, don't be worried,
'Cos there's no cause for alarm. (ha ha ha ha)
'Cos we've got Chorlton, who's a dragon,
and he'll keep you free from harm (ho ho ho ho)
It's fun at anytime of year. So put your wheels in second gear,
And then hold tight,
Alright,
We'll show you all the sights
Of Wheelie World......
Ba-dum.

no hope in zope (-1)

trollercoaster (250101) | more than 12 years ago | (#3387380)


Keep zope alive.

I'm really trying to get a grasp on whether use it (1)

twocents (310492) | more than 12 years ago | (#3387404)

I know, one doesn't know until doing, but I honestly am trying to figure out whether to use Zope or not. Most of the sites I work with right now are about internal data presentation and have very little involvement with individuals that need to customize sites often.

Does anyone have a short and sweet description of where Zope really turned out to be an awesome tool?

Re:I'm really trying to get a grasp on whether use (2)

the_rev_matt (239420) | more than 12 years ago | (#3387507)

My first experience with Zope was "Hi, it's your first day and we want to migrate our website to Zope. We've never used it, but our architect thinks it looks interesting." I'd heard of neither Python nor Zope before, and had it up and running in 2 days. www.planetcad.com

Re:I'm really trying to get a grasp on whether use (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3392953)

I'm really trying to get a grasp on what the hell it is. The article is marvelously lacking on the subject.....

Le Pen(is) (-1)

October_30th (531777) | more than 12 years ago | (#3387405)

The 73-year-old former paratrooper, who has described the Holocaust as "a detail of history," yesterday won more than 17 per cent of the vote.

Still flushed with success, Le Pen said: "I call on patriots, sovereignists and authentic republicans to unite around my candidacy, to oppose the technocratic Europe of Brussels and create a true popular force to defend national independence"

For most of the night, lines of officers used batons and shields to keep a highly volatile crowd of at least 10,000 protesters from marching toward the presidential palace, but managed to stop them at the Place de la Concorde.

Demonstrators chanted "Left, Right - we are all against Le Pen," and "first, second, third generation - we are all immigrants!"

cool (0, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3387456)

he was a paratrooper. is he the only french guy that actually does any fighting?

the french ar such pussies!

Hola amigos (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3387413)

Heh, What is this buttsex I read
about here on slashdot? And why is
this Hemos always reaming CmdrTaco,
has he some kind of illness?

/Senõr Fartypants

LUNIX SUCKS!!! LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3387418)

LUNIX SUCKS!!!

Actually... (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3387424)

Note: this is a reprint for your enjoyment during the (Hopefully) Great Slashdot Blackout. Some links may no longer be active.

It has come to my attention that the entire Microsoft [urinalpoop.org] community is a hotbed of so called 'alternative sexuality,' which includes anything from hedonistic orgies to homosexuality to pedophilia.

What better way of demonstrating this than by looking at the hidden messages contained within the names of some of Windows' most outspoken advocates:

  • William Henry Gates [boomstick.com] is an anagram of 'Anal Might, we're sly,' clearly referring to the 'Gay Power' movement as well as pointing out the cleverness of his own anagram. Note also that the familiar 'Bill Gates' is an anagram of 'I get balls.'
  • Steve Ballmer [thock.com] needs no anagram - the request 'Ball Me' is clearly contained in his name. Obviously he is 'out of the closet.'
  • Craig Mundi [antiquated.org] , unbeknownst to most, added the 'e' onto his last name to cover up the anagram 'I cum in drag' which shows beyond the shadow of a doubt that he is a queer transvestite.


The incredible faggotry of the Microsoft [urinalpoop.org] community can also be seen in its software products. Internet Explorer sounds harmless enough, but on the Microsoft [urinalpoop.org] 'campus' (obviously a reference to the colleges and universities where these perverts first practiced their filthy homosexual behavior) it is referred to as 'InterNUT Explorer' and refers to a device used to tickle the sensitive area of the scrotum between the testicles.

Microsoft Exchange clearly refers to the 'exchange of bodily fluids' which is of course how these depraved specimens of humanity plan to transmit the AIDS virus to the rest of the world.

As far as William 'Homo' Gates goes, that filthy fudge-packer [conhugeco.org] was actually quoted in Time magazine as saying the following: "Just in terms of allocation of time resources, religion is not very efficient. There's alot more I could be doing on a Sunday morning."

And this isn't a made up troll bullshit [conhugeco.org] either! He actually stated this tripe, which makes it obvious that he is trying to politely say that he's a God-forsaken homo slut!

Furthermore, Mr. Gaytes has been quoted as saying "There won't be anything we won't say to people to try and convince them that our way is the way to go," proving that the fag sympathisers are wrong, and these perverts really do want to recruit our fine young heterosexual boys and turn them into flaming queers like themselves.

Speaking about 'flaming,' who better to point out as a filthy chutney ferret than Microsoft [urinalpoop.org] 's own self-confessed homo pimp Craig Mundi(e). He has already confessed, nay boasted of his status as a gay sex pusher. To quote from an interview [planetit.com]
with Planet IT:

"One of the things we want to do and recognize that there's a market for [is] selling people services on a contract or recurring revenue basis, as opposed to traditional royalty bearing for the one-time shipment"

Selling 'people services,' eh? Is this why you were touching your penis [dickcity.com] in the cinema, Craig? And charging the other boys money to touch it too?

We should also point out that Craig has been referred to as 'Microsoft [urinalpoop.org] 's resident Gasbag.' Is there any more doubt? For those fortunate few who aren't aware of the list of homosexual terminology found inside the Windows 'Shared Sauce [dickcity.com] Philosophy,' a 'Gasbag' is a pervert who gains sexual gratification from having a thin straw inserted into his urethra (or to use the common parlance, 'piss-pipe'), then his homosexual lover blows firmly down the straw to inflate his scrotum. This is, of course, when he's not busy violating the dignity and copyright of small software companies
by gathering together their utilities and combining them en masse into the next version of Windows to further his twisted and manipulative agenda of world domination.

Sick, disgusting antichristian perverts, the lot of them.

In addition, many of the Windows error messages (an 'error message' is the most common way the faggots communicate) are full of homsexual slang. 'This program has performed an illegal operation' is their way of advertising that they have been engaged in the vile practice of sodomy [dickcity.com] . 'A fatal exception has occurred' is obviously stating that AIDS has claimed the life of another dick sucker [dickcity.com] . Rather than recognizing that the fag was properly punished for his deviant behavior, Microsoft [urinalpoop.org] -loving queers suggests giving a 'three finger salute' when this happens. Needless to say, this gesture of sympathy involves inserting three fingers into your rectum and farting loudly.

Another group of Windows anal violators [dickcity.com] , going by the code name 'Windows Update' ( ) encourage users to 'download' (receive into their rectums) 'service packs' (also known as 'fudge packs') and 'device drivers' (some sort of mechanical penis, I suspect).

The fags have even invented special tools to aid their faggotry! The program Outlook Express is an anagram of 'Super Sex Tool OK,' which obviously is an endorsement of all kinds of sick behaviors. And obviously PowerPoint is a motorized device for penetrating a virgin anal sphincter.

More evidence is in the fact that Windows users say how much they love 'My Computer.' They sometimes go so far as to say that all new Windows users (who are in fact just innocent heterosexuals indoctrinated by the gay propaganda) should use this icon. The correct spelling of this phrase can again be found in the 'Shared Sauce [dickcity.com] Philosophy.'
It is actually 'My cum pooter,' an endearing term used by dominant fags [goatse.cx] for their queer-love [goatse.cx]
partners. In no other system do users boast of frequently having their rectums pumped full of semen, then farting to expel the jism in a fine mist.

Other areas of the system also show Windows' inherit gayness. For example, people are often told of the 'C: prompt' but how many innocent heterosexual Linux users know what this actually means. The answer is shocking: Seek colon, prompt - a request given by a faggot to his partner when he desires immediate, deep penetration of his ass!

Even the icon 'Recycle Bin' originally referred to a homosexual practice. 'Recycle Bin' of course refers to the popular gay practice of using a young boy's anus as a repository for semen. Shortly after one disgusting faggot [goatse.cx] spews a load of hot jism into the boy's ass, another queer [goatse.cx] will lick the 'Shared Sauce [dickcity.com] ' back out of the 'Recycle Bin'.

To summarise: Windows is gay. 'Microsoft [urinalpoop.org] ' is the graphical description of the state of a fag's penis [goatse.cx] after he has spewed a load of hot sperm into his gay lover's mouth [dickcity.com] or rectum [dickcity.com] . And .NET is for hermaphrodites and disabled 'stumpers.'

I've always found the Bible series (3, Interesting)

glwtta (532858) | more than 12 years ago | (#3387431)

to be rather lacking. I never even consider them when I am looking for a book on something, anymore. I just go straight for the Wrox and O'Reilly offerings (in that order, actually).

Re:I've always found the Bible series (-1)

GafTheHorseInTears (565684) | more than 12 years ago | (#3387529)

Me too. Especially that "New Testament". What a bunch of shit!

Re:I've always found the Bible series (2, Interesting)

ferratus (244145) | more than 12 years ago | (#3387553)

I have quite a few (computer-related) books at home and I mostly agree with you. O'Reilly and Wrox are usually quite good although it's important to note that they are quite different.

Of the 20-odd O'Reilly books that I have, most are quite good. The same applies to Wrox although Wrox's are usually more "tutorial-like" and as such better for a begineer. I feel the animals are usually more in depth and the writting is somewhat better (probably explained by the fact that there's 20 authors on a typicial Wrox book).

My only other complaint about Wrox is that it looks like they reduced the quality of the paper they use latelly.

All in all, both are goods and are my first choices except where there is some high quality hardcover available.

Bible books are a big no-go as is mostly everything that starts with "exceptionnal", "bible", "unleashed", "dummies", "whatever".

Re:I've always found the Bible series (2)

glwtta (532858) | more than 12 years ago | (#3388332)

What I've found works well, is getting one of those monster hard-covers that Wrox puts out, when just starting in a new area, so you get something very comprehensive, if not detailed. And the filling in the rest with more "targeted", smaller animal books. For example, "Professional Java Server Programming, J2EE Edition" has been an amazing resource getting into this whole J2EE thing, mostly because it has damn near everything in it.

Btw, is it just me, or does the guy in the second photo from the left in the bottom row on the cover of that book, look like Jason Mewes (aka Jay of Jay and Silent Bob)?

Re:I've always found the Bible series (1)

ferratus (244145) | more than 12 years ago | (#3389856)

I agree with you. I don't have "Pro. Java Server Prog. J2EE Edition" although I do have "Pro. JSP 2nd ed.". Is it any good ? I really liked their JSP book and was wondering if this book offered anything really important once you know about java/jsp/servlet/javabean.

As for the author, I wouldn't be surprised :) They must have a hard time finding all those unknown authors everytime to publish a book.

Re:I've always found the Bible series (2)

crisco (4669) | more than 12 years ago | (#3387864)

One exception, the 'Bibles' on Macromedia products. These books had a good reputation in the Macromedia newsgroups, the authors participated heavily in that community (and I imagine they participate in the web forums) and the books did a good job of moving from the basics into advanced topics.

But some of the other 'Bible' titles that I purchased based on that good experience were right in line with your opinion, lacking is actually rather kind...

Re:I've always found the Bible series (2)

greenfly (40953) | more than 12 years ago | (#3387885)

Yeah, I've always felt the same way with, "If you have to *call* yourself the 'Bible' on the subject..." Tech books are titled "Bible" by the techs that use them... just seems like some marketer found out and said "hey we'll call this the Bible ahead of time and maybe techs will do the same!" Similar to how Howard Stern started saying he coined the phrase "King of all Media" so that people would start calling him that.

Fascism must stop right here, right now (-1)

October_30th (531777) | more than 12 years ago | (#3387435)

Sayings of Le Pen [thisislondon.com] .

Go Le Pen! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3387481)

the only french guy who isnt communist!

anyway, how is zope or python going to stop anybody?

Screw Le Pen (-1)

October_30th (531777) | more than 12 years ago | (#3387702)

So, you'd rather have a racist nazi as a president as long as he's not a socialist? You must be an American.

Silly Bibles (3, Interesting)

fm6 (162816) | more than 12 years ago | (#3387440)

Ever since the success of their For Dummies series, CDG has been brand-obsessed. So they changed their name to Hungry Minds, designed a silly flying pig logo, and started using "Bible" in all the titles they publish under their own brand. It's just marketing -- it has nothing to do with content.

Lots of computer books start with a title and go from there. I've heard more than one author say, "Hey, this is the title I was told to use. Somebody thinks the book will sell better if it has 'Advanced' or 'Power User. in the title.

Re:Silly Bibles (1)

HisMother (413313) | more than 12 years ago | (#3387478)

I was writing a book for IDG at the time they bought Hungry Minds.

1) The old name was "IDG Books" not "CDG"

2) They didn't change their name, so much; they bought a pre-existing company and used the name. The pig already existed.

3) Your chronology is all wrong, and nothing especially changed when they bought Hungry Minds.

4) They publish many series of books, most of which don't include the word "Bible" in their titles. Several of their current series use the word "Visual" as a theme.

I stand corrected (2)

fm6 (162816) | more than 12 years ago | (#3388678)

But I still say they're brand-obsessed.

Re:Silly Bibles (1)

sisukapalli1 (471175) | more than 12 years ago | (#3387484)

As the saying goes, "Don't judge a book by its cover".... we must add, "Don't judge a book by its title."

S

Re:Silly Bibles (0, Flamebait)

pheared (446683) | more than 12 years ago | (#3387521)

Never found a bible worth reading anyway. Besides, "bible" normally implies wildly inaccurate stories crafted to percolate poor morals and bad information. Or at least, that seems to be the effect.

Oops. (2)

fm6 (162816) | more than 12 years ago | (#3388794)

You seem to have offended the religious sensibilities of a moderator. Is it just me, or are moderators getting more intolerant?

for you (1)

sebol (112743) | more than 12 years ago | (#3388328)

how about
"Zope for you"
"PHP for you"
"Perl for you"

GNU/for you

Quick! (2)

fm6 (162816) | more than 12 years ago | (#3388768)

Register that trademark!

Old troll (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3387442)

Natalie Portman waited in the waiting room at Dr. Zewisky's office. She wondered if the tests would finally show some
lowering in her phermone levels. Her eyes wandered nervously around the room. She saw something interesting hanging on
the wall opposite her. She got up to examine the picture more closely.

Natalie giggled at the absurd image. A fat, pale, sweating, quivering man was bent over a table. His greasy hair was
plastered to his head. A large, rubber-gloved hand was holding a grossly obese fetus. The umbilical chord was still attached
and ran up into the bleeding rectum of the fat loser. The fetus wore a pan-flute on a chain around its neck.

Natalie giggled.

The air conditioner suddenly hummed into operation. Natalie felt the cool air blowing from a vent she was standing under.
Every male in the room looked at the young actress as the phermones wafted through the room.

i took a bitchslapping for natalie portman!!

Hey (1, Offtopic)

glwtta (532858) | more than 12 years ago | (#3387446)

they do fix up their snafus every once in a while!

grandkids got their grandma (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3387451)

"I couldn't take enough pain medication to heal the pain that hurt so bad," Pat recalls. "I laid on the floor and I actually prayed to die. I said, 'God, please just take me home. I don't want to live any longer because the pain is so great.'"

For 17 years Pat Green struggled with the pain brought on by the death of her 23-year-old son. She went from doctor to doctor getting more and more pain medicine - anything to dull the memory of her son's death. Her husband Al stood beside her but didn't know what to do.

"I went to the gauntlet of feelings - it was up and down; the emotions were up and down, because not only was I seeing that she was miserable, but also from my side of it, I was a lonely man," Al says.

"I wish I could say that I was real strong all this time, but I can't. It's tough to see your loved one go through all that pain, and you can't do anything about it. But I marvel at God's grace.

"God began doing something in my heart and it needed to be done, because of being human, there were times when I would become emotionally disturbed and angry because of wanting her to stop going from drug to drug. And I would just want to take a hold of her and say, 'Stop taking the pills!'"

Watching his bride slip away from him was almost more than Al could bear. Even their children and grandchildren didn't know how to deal with this overwhelming addiction. Finally, after 16 long years, the Lord began to give Al insight into their difficult situation.

"The Lord began talking to me again: 'This is the same sweet girl that you married. Look past her suffering. This is the same sweet girl that you married 50 years ago.' It was like the Lord nudged me on the shoulder, literally, and He whispered in my ear, He says, 'You're not battling against flesh and blood.' It was like a revelation that I was not battling against my wife, but against a spirit. And then immediately He took me to the Scripture John 10:10 that says, 'The thief comes to steal, to kill, and to destroy.' And then He says, 'The thief has stolen your wife's health. You go after the thief and get your wife back.'

"He also said something else that night that really struck home. He said, 'You are the key to it. You are the man in the home. You are the priest of the home. You have the right and the position, the authority. Now you go after the thief and demand that he turn loose of your wife's health.'"

One night during November 1999, Al received a frantic phone call from his wife asking for him to come and pick her up. He immediately jumped into the car and went to get her.

"On the way, the Lord said to me, 'Tonight is the night of the showdown.' Those are the words that He used - 'Tonight is the night of the showdown. Go and get your wife.'"

Pat's doctor had taken her off of a cocaine-based drug and put her on one derived from heroin.

"I started hallucinating," Pat says. "I saw things that weren't there. I heard things that weren't said. I got really panicky, because I thought I had seen documents to prove that they were after me. When he came and got me, he started taking me back to this little house again. And I said, 'Don't take me back there. They are going to kill me! And he said, 'Oh no, no, no. They won't kill you.' And so we got there, and he forced me to go into the house. They took me into the back bedroom and that's when it started -- the deliverance."

Al didn't know exactly how to start except to pray, so he knelt by the bed and asked for wisdom and for the Holy Spirit's power.

"All I knew to do was to stand and lay hands on the side of her face and I took authority in the name of Jesus over that spirit of bondage that had stolen my wife's health away from her."

Finally at 4:30 in the morning, both Al and Pat fell into a peaceful sleep. When Pat woke up the next afternoon, Al was overwhelmed at the change.

"The lady that I had known years ago was home," he says, "and from that moment to this, she has not had one pain in the sciatic area that went down in her legs, nor has she had one pill for anything like that in her whole body."

"I had clarity of mind," Pat reveals. "I had no pain; the pain was gone completely. I didn't even desire the drugs. That desire was gone - I was free!"

It's been two years since this healing, and Pat and Al are having the time of their lives. They have been partners of The 700 Club for years and look for opportunities to minister to everyone they meet.

Says Al, "We've been able to unite in prayer every morning now for the first time for a long time when we've had united prayer, and our prayer has been 'God, enable us to speak life into somebody's life today. Help us to give to somebody what we've received from You. And make us a blessing to somebody.'

"That has come to pass. I got my wife back, she got her health back, my kids got their mom back, the grandkids got their grandma, and now the three great grandkids have got their great grandma back. To God be the glory!"

The Zope Book (5, Informative)

casio282 (468834) | more than 12 years ago | (#3387453)

For a great introduction to Zope, I recommend The Zope Book [zope.org] by Amos Latteier & Michel Pelletier.

It's released under the OPL [opencontent.org] and both an HTML version [zope.org] and a PDF version [zope.org] of the book are freely available.

Re:The Zope Book (4, Informative)

MartinB (51897) | more than 12 years ago | (#3388337)

While it is wonderful that it's free, the Zope Book suffers from a lack of understanding of where new Zope users start from. The outline concepts are reasonably well explained, but there's next to no code samples to show you how DTML works (think of the ORA camel and llama books by contrast). It's very much written by deep experts who haven't been able to think back to the learning paradigm.

Or, in other words, it's really not worth paying for a dead tree version.

Other Zope books such as the Zope Web Application Kit are nothing more than how to install CMF and other popular products if we've got time (actually, much of the Zope world is CMF obsessed - not all sites fit into the CMF community publishing model...)

If this book actually does what it says on the tin, it will be a welcome addition to the bookshelf.

Re:The Zope Book (2)

56ker (566853) | more than 12 years ago | (#3388627)

I've just thought of a good title for a Zope book for beginners - not Zope for Beginners, or Zope for Dummies but Zope for Dopes! :o)

Re:The Zope Book (1)

mhesseltine (541806) | more than 12 years ago | (#3388883)

How about "Zope on a Rope"?

blackout schmackout... (-1, Offtopic)

TheQuantumShift (175338) | more than 12 years ago | (#3387469)

Last time I read the constitution, slashdot or any other NON-GOVERNMENT CONTROLLED medium had no first amendment "protection". If you think there's some silly conspiracy against thoughtful losers who have nothing better to do than spend every waking second hitting refresh to check their karma, then go start your own goddamn site. I personally care about the articles, not the "I know more obscure programming facts than you" comments. This isn't your site, and if you don't like how things are done, then don't visit.

BOYCOTT SLASHDOT! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3387499)

Start boycotting slashdot today by posting only off-topic or trolls! Honk if you are with me!

First Bible! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3387504)

Ezekiel 1

The Living Creatures and the Glory of the Lord

1 In the [1] thirtieth year, in the fourth month on the fifth day, while I was among the exiles by the Kebar River, the heavens were opened and I saw visions of God.
2 On the fifth of the month-it was the fifth year of the exile of King Jehoiachin- 3 the word of the LORD came to Ezekiel the priest, the son of Buzi, [2] by the Kebar River in the land of the Babylonians. [3] There the hand of the LORD was upon him.
4 I looked, and I saw a windstorm coming out of the north-an immense cloud with flashing lightning and surrounded by brilliant light. The center of the fire looked like glowing metal, 5 and in the fire was what looked like four living creatures. In appearance their form was that of a man, 6 but each of them had four faces and four wings. 7 Their legs were straight; their feet were like those of a calf and gleamed like burnished bronze. 8 Under their wings on their four sides they had the hands of a man. All four of them had faces and wings, 9 and their wings touched one another. Each one went straight ahead; they did not turn as they moved.
10 Their faces looked like this: Each of the four had the face of a man, and on the right side each had the face of a lion, and on the left the face of an ox; each also had the face of an eagle. 11 Such were their faces. Their wings were spread out upward; each had two wings, one touching the wing of another creature on either side, and two wings covering its body. 12 Each one went straight ahead. Wherever the spirit would go, they would go, without turning as they went. 13 The appearance of the living creatures was like burning coals of fire or like torches. Fire moved back and forth among the creatures; it was bright, and lightning flashed out of it. 14 The creatures sped back and forth like flashes of lightning.
15 As I looked at the living creatures, I saw a wheel on the ground beside each creature with its four faces. 16 This was the appearance and structure of the wheels: They sparkled like chrysolite, and all four looked alike. Each appeared to be made like a wheel intersecting a wheel. 17 As they moved, they would go in any one of the four directions the creatures faced; the wheels did not turn about [4] as the creatures went. 18 Their rims were high and awesome, and all four rims were full of eyes all around.
19 When the living creatures moved, the wheels beside them moved; and when the living creatures rose from the ground, the wheels also rose. 20 Wherever the spirit would go, they would go, and the wheels would rise along with them, because the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels. 21 When the creatures moved, they also moved; when the creatures stood still, they also stood still; and when the creatures rose from the ground, the wheels rose along with them, because the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels.
22 Spread out above the heads of the living creatures was what looked like an expanse, sparkling like ice, and awesome. 23 Under the expanse their wings were stretched out one toward the other, and each had two wings covering its body. 24 When the creatures moved, I heard the sound of their wings, like the roar of rushing waters, like the voice of the Almighty, [5] like the tumult of an army. When they stood still, they lowered their wings.
25 Then there came a voice from above the expanse over their heads as they stood with lowered wings. 26 Above the expanse over their heads was what looked like a throne of sapphire, [6] and high above on the throne was a figure like that of a man. 27 I saw that from what appeared to be his waist up he looked like glowing metal, as if full of fire, and that from there down he looked like fire; and brilliant light surrounded him. 28 Like the appearance of a rainbow in the clouds on a rainy day, so was the radiance around him.
This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD . When I saw it, I fell facedown, and I heard the voice of one speaking.

Due to excessive bad posting from this IP or Subnet, comment posting has temporarily been disabled. If it's you, consider this a chance to sit in the timeout corner. If it's someone else, this is a chance to hunt them down. If you think this is unfair, please email jamie@mccarthy.vg with your MD5'd IPID and SubnetID, which are "gay" and "slashdot".

Due to excessive bad posting from this IP or Subnet, comment posting has temporarily been disabled. If it's you, consider this a chance to sit in the timeout corner. If it's someone else, this is a chance to hunt them down. If you think this is unfair, please email jamie@mccarthy.vg with your MD5'd IPID and SubnetID, which are "gay" and "slashdot".

I got The Zope Book (2)

Colin Smith (2679) | more than 12 years ago | (#3387513)

I find it very difficult to read. I have difficulty reading more than a couple of pages before wanting to put it down.

More a reference book I think.

Bible (1)

NickRob (575331) | more than 12 years ago | (#3387545)

The name 'Bible' is condescending. It implies that the book is the be-all, end-all. Why can't it be a 'tome' or "big f'n guide to zope"? I like Python as much as the rest of you, but why is every big book a 'Bible'?

not surprising (2)

room101 (236520) | more than 12 years ago | (#3387568)

I have found that if a book is call "bible" by its author/publisher, it never is (not that I have see, anyway; flames/exceptions to /dev/null ;-).
If it is called "bible" by users, it usually is.

Zope and databases (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3387586)

I'm glad to hear they cover RMDB integration. I think a killer book would focus exclusively on Zope, Python, and RMDBs.

As a relatively new user of Zope/Python, I have to say that they are both unbelievably flexible and easy to use *once* you figure out how to use them. This is great because instead of thinking "Jeez, what a pain in the butt!", I keep thinking "Of course!". Still, it means that early on I occassionally had to figure stuff out without documentation (though this last year has seen maybe three or four new Zope books, so that's no longer the case.) With more quality documentation, I suspect a lot of people will be turning to Zope/Python. It's just too easy and too good.

BTW, for those interested in a nice companion to Zope, I found Python Web Programming by Steve Holden to be a killer how-to book. It took me from 0-60 in a few days. If I ever meet Holden, I'm definitely buying him a beer.

Re:Zope and databases (1)

Big Ryan (11871) | more than 12 years ago | (#3388327)

Absolutely. I am working on a project that will require Zope and RDBMs, and a book on that specific subject would be very valuable.

Re:Zope and databases (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3395470)

ZopeMag has an article about RDBMS's and Zope Page Templates.

ah, zope (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3387602)

I used to develop for the ACS, which in some ways was regarded as a direct competitor to Zope, to the point that a Zope user wrote up a pretty even-handed comparison between the two. He said things like, "Well, we have the ACS beat on feature X, but they have us beat on feature Y." At that point, I would look over at the sorry state of feature Y on our system and think, "Wow, if feature Y scares them then our FUD is working."

I remember the first time I installed the ACS, I was impressed with the out-of-the-box functionality. But after getting on the inside, I learned that the ACS was little more than some threaded discussion lists, user scripts, and a moderately beefy intranet module. Looking back, I could have written the whole thing myself, and in fact we did on our client projects, where the ACS was eventually overwritten with custom code. A good starting point, perhaps, but not much more.

If that wasn't bad enough, the ACS went towards an object model, proprietary markup language, and content management - just like Zope - which promply drove the company out of business.

I wish the Zope team luck, they probably made more correct design decisions than we did. They survived long enough to put out two books. But to me, web toolkits are kind of like white elephants. They promise glory but in the end they are just massive, hungry, messy beasts.

Re:ah, zope (1)

Shadowlore (10860) | more than 12 years ago | (#3391170)


If that wasn't bad enough, the ACS went towards an object model, proprietary markup language, and content management - just like Zope - ...


Just to clarify, Zope doesn't use a proprietary markup language and started with an object model.

Decent-but-spotty (1, Flamebait)

Dephex Twin (416238) | more than 12 years ago | (#3387734)

"Bible" may be too grand a word for this decent-but-spotty work.

I dunno, I thought the original bible had some interesting stories but was overall pretty spotty and even contradictory at times.

mark

Zope has a steep learning curve (4, Informative)

Arkham (10779) | more than 12 years ago | (#3387739)

Zope has to be one of the coolest open-source projects I have ever used. You can literally build a site from scratch to completion in a matter of hours or days (depending on complexity) if you know what you're doing.

I used to work for a company that built a very large ZCatalog-driven site (with over 300,000 items in the ZCatalog, interfacing to an Oracle backend with over 3 million items). Zope was an excellent development platform, and I still use it on personal projects.

The biggest thing keeping Zope for blowing other products like WebLogic and StoryServer out of the water is the steep learning curve. It took me a good month to get up to real speed on Zope, and I had a background in python. Zope relies on some very powerful base-class "magic" to make everything work, and some of that behavior is hard to grok (acquisition, ZClass/Python-class dichotomy, the ZCatalog, the BTree implementation, and the various ZODB Storage options come to mind).

At the 2001 Python conference, the Zope-Corp (nee Digital Creations) folks said the learning curve was a high priority for future releases. I hope so, because Zope and python are great technologies for those who make the time investment necessary to learn them.

Re:Zope has a steep learning curve (1)

AX.25 (310140) | more than 12 years ago | (#3387940)

I found it very easy once I gathered enough knowledge of which online resources provided the best answers to my questions. These would be zopelabs.com and searching the email archives (not using the yahoogroups brain dead interface but the other search link) at zope.org. These plus the zopebook made learning zope easy and fun. I love zope page templates...

Bonuses on the Zope CD (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3387769)

You know I thought the best part of the book was the inclusion of a PDF of both the book and the Python Bible. I love being able to find what I am looking for easily with PDFs. I also don't have to haul the book with me to get the information on those long flights.

tool (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3388225)

took you out in back of the toolshed
knock you right on top of your forehead
took you out in back of the toolshed
now you kno what you're f^cking with...
Maynard's Dick!

Squishdot--A Slashcode clone (2)

Wise Dragon (71071) | more than 12 years ago | (#3389150)

This seems like a good place to mention Squishdot [squishdot.org] , a weblog product for Zope. Its claim to fame is that it looks quite like Slashdot, though it is missing some features.

If you're looking to build a stripped-down slashdot-like site, Squishdot and Zope may be the answer.

Drwning in alphabet soup! (3, Informative)

aquarian (134728) | more than 12 years ago | (#3389509)

I'm sure Zope is much simpler than it looks, and after working with it awhile, you get to a point where it's all crystal clear. But I could never get to that point- everything is obscured by silly new paradigms, acronyms, and taxonomy. It's all just too zilly for me. After ztruggling with Zope for what zeemed like a zentury, I picked up OpenACS [openacs.org] and built a website with it in about three weeks.

Re:Drwning in alphabet soup! (1)

Shadowlore (10860) | more than 12 years ago | (#3391196)

Informative? Hardly. Humerous, perhaps, but not informative.

Informative woudd have been detials on what *exactly* the poster had troubles with, and what he or she was *trying* to do.

zope - when to use it (2, Informative)

jpenny (134288) | more than 12 years ago | (#3390536)

First, zope is relatively complicated. It can be used to cover a lot of ground. It has an object database, four scripting languages (DTML, python, TAL/METAL, and by extension perl), database connectivity to many SQL databases, and a couple hundred plugin products, including products which allow access to filesystems, a document library, various problem trackers, xml-rpc, xml, email, etc.

This means that a good zope developer has to know quite a lot.

The problem that is now facing beginners is that the toolset is rich enough and the advice offered is disparate enough that they are ususally confused for quite a while.

DTML is ugly, is no longer encouraged, etc. It is also easy to pick up. You really want to use only dtml-var, dtml-in, and maybe dtml-if.

TAL/METAL is an XML dialect that is supposed to be GUI designer tool compatible and still allow limited program expressiblity. This is what most of the gurus use now, rather than DTML. To my eyes, it is even uglier than DTML.

For more complicated constructs, use Script (Python) methods. Most of the power of python, reasonable attempts are made to keep programmers from accidentally opening security holes.

If you need more power than that, and carefully think about security, python is avaliable in external methods. The biggest issue here is that no security checks are made and the programmer must have write access to the file-system; something that is not required for Script (Python).

And finally, you can build your own extensions, most people seem to be using pure Products, these days. There are a couple HOWTOs on the process.

With this number of independent choices (ZOBD/filesystem/SQL database), (DTML/TAL/Script (Python)/External Method/Product); and with the number of things that you have to worry about with a number of different kinds of people zope is targeted at (website designer, DTML/TAL developer, python developer, SQL administrator/developer, product developer, core developer), it is no wonder that these books are a bit schizophrenic and skip from high point to high point.

My best advice is that 1) if you want to be anything other than a website designer, you better know HTML very well. 2) Do something like a simple phone book application. Pick one programming language (DTML/TAL/python), and one data store (ZODB, SQL, filesystem). Try to learn as little as possible. It will probably take you about ten days; and you will be ready to chuck the mess out the window. 3) Now, throw everything away. Do your phonebook again, without refering to anything in your old design. You will probably find that you can do it in about 4 hours. When that point comes, you find that, yes, the initial headaches are worth it; and that, most of what you learned ended up not coming from the book anyway.

As a final remark, the phone book exercise is worth repeating every six months or so. Use the same toolset, or a new one. Think of ways to generalize it, sort orders, reverse lookup, etc. You will be astonished at how much better you get and how much the choice of problem influences the choice of toolset!

Re:zope - when to use it (1)

Shadowlore (10860) | more than 12 years ago | (#3391184)

Call it a nit if you want, but of the "scripting languages" you listed, only one is a scripting language: Python.

FreeZope (1)

mahju (160244) | more than 12 years ago | (#3390999)

For those who want to whett their Zope appetite, try www.freezope.org a cool free zope hosting site, allows you some control through DTML, and python scripts.

After 2 years of Zope (1)

Jeff Archambeault (41488) | more than 12 years ago | (#3392269)

When I first saw Zope, it was as a "collaborative development platform". After over 2 years of using it, I still only have half a clue.

Paid to be a "helpdesk analyst" for proprietory POS software and not to code, I've been learning Zope for over 2 years. In another year, I'll be ready to build a full python Product. Most of the lag is the free time issue, some is development process.

I'm glad I've read this review before seeing it on the shelf. I've bought _The Zope Book_ and _Zope Web Application Development Kit_ and have found both only partially helpful. The DTML reference in TZB, once helpful, is now older than the publishing process with ZPT/TAL seems to be "the way to go".

Stated elsewhere, I think my next Zope book will be by O Reilly. I'm beyond the basics, and am in need of a good reference book, not selected chapters/parts of several books.

All in all, Zope works well and provides a suitable collaborative development environment, and the price is right (GPL). It's also a great introduction/immersion into object oriented programming.

Re:After 2 years of Zope (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3392540)

A minor point: Zope is not released under the GPL, it's released under the Zope Public License, a GPL-compatible BSD license derivative.

an OO zealot's toy? (1)

Tablizer (95088) | more than 12 years ago | (#3392403)

A reviewer at infoworld.com suggested that Zope was built by "OOP Zealots" (paraphrased) instead of with practicality in mind. (Sorry, I cannot find the article anymore. It is roughly 18 months old. If I find it again, I will post a link.)

Why try to reinvent OODBMS' when the market has rejected those silly, contorted things? When OO hype builds up OOP product sales, you zealOOts claim victory, but hypocritically keep hugging OO technologies, like OODBS, that the market has pissed on.

oop.ismad.com

And, just because I don't like OO does NOT make me a troll. One can hate MS around here without getting modded down, but mention OOP, and kaboof! from the evidence-free OO-cliche lickers. Mod me down ONLY when you have fricken evidence that OOP is objectively better in all domains.

Re:an OO zealot's toy? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#3392574)

FWIW, Zope doesn't "try to reinvent an OODBMS", it ships with a fully-functioning object database. It's pretty seamless and unless you paid close attention, you probably wouldn't even know you were using it. But if you're allergic to OODB's, you don't need to use it. If you'd rather use use an RDBMS, Zope also has interfaces to MySQL, Postgres, Sybase, Oracle, Interbase/Firebird, Solid, SAP-DB, ODBC, Informix, JDBC, and DBMaker. There are also adapters for the Tamino XML database, LDAP, BerkeleyDB as well as all database adapters supported by Perl via zoperl and JDBC via a third-party addin.

You can program Zope in a purely procedural style if you want. The OO is optional.

Re:an OO zealot's toy? (1)

Tablizer (95088) | more than 12 years ago | (#3399390)

It almost seems like Zope tries to be everything to everybody. Usually those don't work so well IMO. But then again, I suppose I would have to use it for a good while to really know.

I think HTML form interfaces are doomed anyhow. Businesses really want server-controlled GUI's; and HTML forms are optimized for e-brochures, not business forms.

Too many times in many businesses I have been asked to make web forms act like GUI's, with mixed results. The pressure is building. As soon as a decent protocol catches on (like SCGUI, plug plug), things like Zope will be reduced to e-brochure managers.
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