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A Thoughtful Look at Indian Outsourcing

michael posted more than 10 years ago | from the even-shell-scripts-fear-for-their-jobs dept.

Programming 1772

thefinite writes "This article needs to be read by anyone interested in the outsourcing of IT jobs to India, no matter your opinion of it. It dispels some rumors (for example, if Indian IT companies do such bad work, why are over half of Carnegie Mellon's highest-rated programming companies Indian?). It addresses all of the arguments. Perhaps most importantly, it adds faces to the problem. It not only tells us about the American programmers who are out of jobs, but also about the Indians who are getting them. In the end of it, this is what Free Trade is about: people. This article makes that clear."

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OMG SCO GOT DoS3D LOLHAHAHAHAHA!!!! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8105766)



SCO is Teh Suxx0r HAHAHAHAHA

Re:OMG SCO GOT DoS3D LOLHAHAHAHAHA!!!! (-1, Troll)

GoatSeCxGoat (744431) | more than 10 years ago | (#8105781)

Indian worships penis god

One thing we can't outsource... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8105770)

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You just can't take Linux [redhat.com] seriously when its fronted by losers [nylug.org] like these. Would you buy software from them? I don't think so! You Linux [suse.com] groupies need to find some sexy girls like her [hope-2000.org] ! I mean just look at this girl [wigen.net] ! Doesn't she [pipboy2002.mine.nu] excite you? I know this little hottie [pipboy2002.mine.nu] puts me in need of a cold shower! This guy looks like he is about to cream his pants standing next to such a fox [spilth.org] . As you can see, no man can resist this sexy [spilth.org] little minx [spilth.org] . I mean are you telling me you wouldn't like to get your hands on this ass [dis.org] ?!

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Not the First Post! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8105771)

Because I fail it.

GNAA Interviews CowboyNeal (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8105775)

GNAA Interviews CowboyNeal
by GNAA staff

UPDATE! UPDATE!
Since the original posting of this article there has been some doubts about authenticity of CowboyNeal. Rest assured, however, he was indeed the real CowboyNeal. We could tell by the smell coming from his pants.

On January 17 2004, select members of the GNAA interviewed CowboyNeal on IRC channel #caoine at irc.caoine.org.

We will be right back after this commercial break!
According to Google Zeitgeist [google.com] , there are about 80% of Internet Explorer 6 [microsoft.com] users. The only platform supporting Internet Explorer 6 is, of course, Microsoft Windows. These statistics are consistent with the earlier presented graphs of the operating systems used to access Google, with the Windows family consistently taking the top 3 ranks. Out of remaining 20%, the split is even between MSIE 5.5, MSIE 5.0, both Windows-only browsers. Netscape 5.x (including Mozilla) counts for only a measly 5% of browsers used to access Google. As you can see from the graph, this sample was calculated starting from March 2001 until September 2003.
According to Google Zeitgeist [google.com] , there are about 80% of Internet Explorer 6 [microsoft.com] users. The only platform supporting Internet Explorer 6 is, of course, Microsoft Windows. These statistics are consistent with the earlier presented graphs of the operating systems used to access Google, with the Windows family consistently taking the top 3 ranks. Out of remaining 20%, the split is even between MSIE 5.5, MSIE 5.0, both Windows-only browsers. Netscape 5.x (including Mozilla) counts for only a measly 5% of browsers used to access Google. As you can see from the graph, this sample was calculated starting from March 2001 until September 2003.
And now we return to our scheduled broadcast...

The following are select portions of the chat transcript kept by official GNAA stenographer (and Ringmusculaturis II Leader), Captain B. Dick

---
GNAA Member AbdullaH introduces himself to CowboyNeal

[5:09:26] AbdullaH: Hello, Sir! My name is Abdullah Ihram Mohammad Bin Zular Krokar Tehroham Kumr, I am a TERRORIST. My father was on the first plane that crashed in the World Tarde Center. I get a boner every time CNN plays that tape. If you wish to help me in my quest for WORLD SLAVERY, please purchase a kalashnikov at your nearest kalashnikov store and HELP ME KILL ALL AMERICANS!

[5:09:29] CowboyNeal: if this is part of that jihad I keep hearing about, it's a pretty fucking lame part of it
---
CowboyNeal is questioned about his feelings towards civil rights; uses both the N, and K-words

[5:21:11] timecop: CowboyNeal: do you have something against niggers?

[5:21:24] CowboyNeal: nay, some of best friends are nigs
[5:23:47] CowboyNeal: like all my kike friends too?

---
GNAA Member timecop inquires about Slashdot [slashdot.org] moderation policies. CowboyNeal admits to cleaning peoples' shit up for a living.

[5:16:04] timecop: I have a problem with my slashdot account
[5:16:09] timecop: it has Karma: excellent
[5:16:10] timecop: but I post at -1
[5:16:12] timecop: WHAT THE FUCK?!

[5:16:19] CowboyNeal: yeah, sucks, don't it?

[5:16:26] CaptBDick: wow that can happen?

[5:16:41] timecop: CowboyNeal: mind to explain what the FUCK is going on?

[5:17:00] CowboyNeal: you got downmodded into oblivion at least once, and there's no second chances

[5:17:17] timecop: no, i got a better theory
[5:17:35] timecop: some nazis downmodded a bunch of my comments and set a flag to fuck all my posts
[5:17:41] timecop: because someone doesnt agree with my OPINIONS

[5:18:05] CowboyNeal: you are complaining to the janitor, not the vice principal
[5:23:08] CowboyNeal: I don't have any modpoints
---
CowboyNeal admits hatred for Rob "CmdrTaco" Malda [cmdrtaco.net] , and pretends to have a girlfriend.

[5:25:27] CowboyNeal: hey, I hate malda just as much as you guys. If it weren't for him making me work saturdays, I'd be with my gf right now.
---

This IRC Transcript brought to you by a proud GNAA member.

If you have mod points and would like to support GNAA, please moderate this post up.
By moderating this post as "Underrated", you cannot be Meta-Moderated! Please consider this.


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A THOUGHTFUL Look at Indian Outsourcing? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8105790)

Can they DO that?

bullcrap (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8105802)

Im sure when dell moved support to india they were really thinking of all those indian families they were helping..... right. Oh and im sure they were thinking of quality of support, becuase after all someone who doesn't speak english very well can help my grandma fix her computer.

The bottom line is $$.

Re:bullcrap (0, Funny)

GoatSeCxGoat (744431) | more than 10 years ago | (#8105824)

then why did you elected him to white house

Cannonfodder (3, Insightful)

AKAImBatman (238306) | more than 10 years ago | (#8105804)

This article is simply a sensational piece. It's intent is to say, "See? Look at all the smart programmers we found in India! Don't you feel ashamed of yourselves now?" At which point both sides of the argument will start shouting.

Do yourself a favor. Realize that there are smart people in India, and there are smart people in the US. Realize that the amount of outsourcing done is ineffective and will change, but some outsourcing works and will work.

Re:Cannonfodder (-1, Insightful)

nihilogos (87025) | more than 10 years ago | (#8105885)

Realize that there are smart people in India, and there are smart people in the US.

And realize that there are four times as many smart people in India, simply because they have four times as many people. They're probably more effective workers too, being devoid of western egos.

In any case us western countries have had the lion's share of the distribution of wealth for far too long at the expense of poorer nations. I don't think we have the right to complain if an Indian coder takes our job.

Re:Cannonfodder (-1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8105976)

In any case us western countries have had the lion's share of the distribution of wealth for far too long at the expense of poorer nations.

Spoken like a true liberal, i.e., someone who believes wealth is "distributed" and not earned.

Re:Cannonfodder (4, Insightful)

CaptBubba (696284) | more than 10 years ago | (#8105998)

"I don't think we have the right to complain if an Indian coder takes our job."

Oh, we can bitch all we want about it, as we have the right to free speach.

Now, whether we have a good basis for our complaints or not is the real question.

Re:Cannonfodder (0, Redundant)

Rusty Bedsprings (720146) | more than 10 years ago | (#8105959)

I find it rather ironic that so many people in America, the land of capitalism, hate outsourcing so much. This is simple economics right out of Adam Smith. People in India can do the same things as people here in the States, and at a significantly lower price. Therefore, they get the jobs, and rightfully so. One good benefit for Americans is that this allows their employers to use that money elsewhere. And yeah, IT job salaries might fall, and some people might have find jobs outside the IT field. But for the most part Indians need these jobs much worse than we do. I'm willing to bet that as far as possessions go, the average unemployed computer geek is significanlty better off than the Indian worker who "stole" his job.

Sounds like... (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8105805)

...someone is trying to curry favor with American corporate entities.

Corporations have nothing to do with it. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8105839)

This has nothing to do with corporations (little does): it is all about getting rid of unnecessary, artificial barriers put up by governments that prevent people who do the jobs better from doing their jobs.

Re:Sounds like... (-1)

count_sporkula (446625) | more than 10 years ago | (#8105890)

(Score: -1, Awful Pun)

Opposition is racist (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8105806)

The opposition to free and fair trade (including opposing people who can do the job better getting jobs) is often racist. Can't have those brown people "Steal" American jobs by doing them better!

Re:Opposition is racist (4, Insightful)

javiercero (518708) | more than 10 years ago | (#8105878)

The key word is not "better" but "cheaper", it happened with manufacturing jobs in the past 2 decades... it started happening with other jobs now. As long as executive positions are not being outsourced Corporate America could care less about who is doing the job, and the quality of it.

In some sense it is economic suicide, sure you produce cheaper goods, but those who are in this country to buy them are out of jobs. I.e. they have no money to buy those cheap goods, and the people who produced the goods are too underpayed to afford those goods. This is why MBA schools should be shut down once and for all, they have been produced miserable failures for the past 2 decades, a ton of greedy idiot savants who are unable to see the whole picture.

I could care less if Indian companies can do the same job better, or cheaper. If that was the case Indian corporations would rule the market, if there was indeed a perfect free economic system as the article sort of tried to hint.

Better = cheaper (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8105912)

Better IS cheaper. If you can get the same thing for less money, it is a much better deal.

it happened with manufacturing jobs in the past 2 decades

Yes. the Americans were fat and lazy and didn't bother to compete.

In some sense it is economic suicide

No, it's not.

but those who are in this country to buy them are out of jobs

Not true at all. Unemployment is down a little now compared to BEFORE the outsourcing boom.

Re:Better = cheaper (0)

GoatSeCxGoat (744431) | more than 10 years ago | (#8105990)

Believe me when i say that american worker are most productive. if you dont believe me check the statistics yourself. Or go to europe

Re:Better = cheaper (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8106020)

Unemployment is not down. The figures do not show what is current they are 6-8 months late. Also I believe the fact that only 1000 new jobs were created last month as opposed to the 150K planned on shows a little something. Im not to worried. Ive not seen one offshore project work correctly. Ive seen companies do more to cover up the failures of the offshore projects then try and get the projects to work.

Bad code? (2, Informative)

seebs (15766) | more than 10 years ago | (#8105810)

I assume that some of them are bad, and some are good. Some of my friends have worked with outsourced code that was unbelievably bad; on the other hand, I've seen awful code in the US.

I think there's a bit of everything in that; some actual bad code, some poor communications, some just about everything.

Re:Bad code? (1)

wankledot (712148) | more than 10 years ago | (#8106024)

I think there's a bit of everything in that; some actual bad code, some poor communications, some just about everything.

Bingo. The quality of software has little to do with the quality of some basic chunks of code. It's about how that's put together, designed, and implemented. If outsourcing is managed badly, and you rely on people outside of project management to tie it all together, it's probably going to suck, even if all the routines and algorithms are flawless.

It depends so much on the type of product, it's almost not even worth talking about. Would I rely on an indian firm to write thousands of math and science routines? Yeah. Would I rely on them to design the whole product, interface, integration, and human interaction? Not likely.

"bad code" makes very little difference compared to "bad management and design" when it comes to most large products.

That's all well and good.... (1, Insightful)

TrekCycling (468080) | more than 10 years ago | (#8105813)

...but it's still a race to the bottom.

Just wait until the Indian programmers become too expensive and the jobs move to Elbonia. Can we expect a thoughtful article on how the greedy Indian programmers need to be nicer to the folks in Elbonia who are getting the jobs now.

It's all about the rich getting richer, nothing more.

BTW, First Post.

Re:That's all well and good.... (4, Insightful)

peeping_Thomist (66678) | more than 10 years ago | (#8105858)

It's all about the rich getting richer, nothing more.

Funny, it also looks like it's in part about the poor getting richer.

Re:That's all well and good.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8105862)

I agree completely with you. These "free-trade" apologists are going to be the the most annoying whiners you have ever heard when they have to send their 5 and 6 year olds off to the sweatshop in Scranton PA just so they can afford enough to eat. Dont laugh, it will happen I guarantee it.

Re:That's all well and good.... (1)

TrekCycling (468080) | more than 10 years ago | (#8105954)

I doubt the ones that write for Wired will have to worry. Well, at least until Wired goes under.

Re:That's all well and good.... (1)

kisrael (134664) | more than 10 years ago | (#8106018)

I doubt the ones that write for Wired will have to worry. Well, at least until Wired goes under.

You know, I think Wired has shown some pretty remarkable resiliency through this whole boom and bust. Consistently they have articles I find interesting. I still subscribe out of loyalty, even though (or because?) they put almost all of their content online shortly thereafter.

Cost of loss (0)

noelo (661375) | more than 10 years ago | (#8105815)

a lot of commentry compares the outsourcing of computing with the outsourcing of manufacturing in the seventies and eighties. This might seem as a logical progression of employment to cheaper regions however what happens to those people who lose their jobs and are still trying to pay for the college education which they required to get those jobs.

The end of the industry as we know it (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8105816)

Irregardless of the angle placed upon the situation or the people involved, the "outsource-to-India" thing is affecting more than a few American jobs. This is a global problem.

Realistically, IT workers (non-management) need to consider their jobs redundant and over in five years. Make sure you've got skills that require onsite presence, like cabling.

The industry is just about finished, people, and it's getting worse. Give it a little longer and we'll see the likes of Sun vanish, HP is exiting the Unix market and the Linux bubble will eventually burst.

Can *you* make coffee?

Re:The end of the industry as we know it (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8105989)

wow, my favorite non-existant word..."irregardless"...a word so conflicted against itself that it realizes that it was brought into this world as a crime against nature and hurls itself the top floor of the basement...

Re:The end of the industry as we know it (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8105999)

> This is a global problem.

No, it's only a problem of the western world.

OMG (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8105819)

OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG huh?

Schnapps!!!!!!!!

Outsourcing is a good thing... (5, Insightful)

SilentT (742071) | more than 10 years ago | (#8105821)

I find it rather ironic that so many people in America, the land of capitalism, hate outsourcing so much. This is simple economics right out of Adam Smith. People in India can do the same things as people here in the States, and at a significantly lower price. Therefore, they get the jobs, and rightfully so. One good benefit for Americans is that this allows their employers to use that money elsewhere. And yeah, IT job salaries might fall, and some people might have find jobs outside the IT field. But for the most part Indians need these jobs much worse than we do. I'm willing to bet that as far as possessions go, the average unemployed computer geek is significanlty better off than the Indian worker who "stole" his job.

Re:Outsourcing is a good thing... (2, Insightful)

cartzworth (709639) | more than 10 years ago | (#8105861)

On 11k in India you can live more than comfortably. 11k in the US is 1/3rd the poverty line. Americans will simply not work that hard, to live an impoverish lifestyle, and I can totally agree with that. Now if they moved to India on their 11k salary, they too could live comfortably with their Indian counter parts.

Stolen? No. US techs give jobs away. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8105871)

Yes, outsourcing is a good thing. The jobs end up going to those individuals who are capable of doing a better job.

Yes, cheaper = better. If someone does the SAME job for a lower price, it is a much better deal.

off than the Indian worker who "stole" his job.

That is so funny. The Indians did not steal the jobs. Rather, the jobs were given away to the Indians by those who could not do them as well. If you refuse to compete with someone who does it better, you are giving away the job.

Re:Stolen? No. US techs give jobs away. (3, Insightful)

TrekCycling (468080) | more than 10 years ago | (#8106008)

How must I compete, Mensa? Lower my standard of living to $11,000 per year? Move to India? Become a nuclear physicist or nanotechnologist overnight (until that job gets outsourced)? This "do a better job, loser" garbage gets old. This has nothing to do with "better". It has to do with the fact that there are 5-some billion people on this planet so they can keep moving from country to country paying the lowest possible wages to get what they want. They being the rich. It has nothing to do with our effort or skill level.

Re:Outsourcing is a good thing... (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8105887)

You must not be unemployed.

Re:Outsourcing is a good thing... (5, Insightful)

TrekCycling (468080) | more than 10 years ago | (#8105892)

You're right. They use that money elsewhere.

Bigger boats
$15,000 watches
Expensive artwork
Marble dog-houses
McMegaMansions

The little guy doesn't get to assemble these either, by the way. Those jobs have also been outsourced. We get to sell them if we're lucky. This isn't the economy Adam Smith envisioned. It's capitalism to it's logical excess. The rich keep getting richer. The poor keep getting poorer. There are 5+ billion people on the planet, right? Once the 2 billion or whatever in India become too expensive, they have 4 billion more they can exploit.

Re:Outsourcing is a good thing... (1)

enjo13 (444114) | more than 10 years ago | (#8106028)

Funny, but the median income in the United States has risen quite a bit over the last 50 years (even after taking inflation into account).

The rich ARE getting richer, true. The gap bewteen the richest and the poorest is growing..true.

Yet the poor are getting richer too.. and oh ya, the middle class are SIGNIFICANTLY better off than just two decades ago.

Re:Outsourcing is a good thing... (2, Insightful)

Dark Lord Seth (584963) | more than 10 years ago | (#8105907)

Yes, but that doesn't change a damned thing if you got laid of and still have a wife, two kids and a little Jack Russel called "Bono" to take care of.*

NOTE:
* = Does not apply to me. But I would feel pretty fcked if it did.

Re:Outsourcing is a good thing... (2, Interesting)

Kenja (541830) | more than 10 years ago | (#8105919)

So after years of school and experiance we should just go work at a fast food joint? Please explain why. Also, keep in mind that this is NOT free trade. It is a one way deal. They get our jobs, but we get nothing and cant go over there to work.

Re:Outsourcing is a good thing... (5, Informative)

c0dedude (587568) | more than 10 years ago | (#8105986)

You obviously don't know crap about economic theory. Free trade relies on the idea of comparative advantage, that one place is inherently better at doing something than another. When Indian programmers are just as good as American programmers and there's no transport cost (facilitated by internet transmission of code), then it really is a race to the bottom to see who can pay the least for the samee service. There's no advantage to hiring US programmers, so it goes to India! In short, we're screwed! And, as posted earlier, it's a one way ticket! We can't get visas to work in India, and even if we could, it would be for 1/6th of what a programmer would make here! So don't give me bull about capitalism. This isn't a debate about capitalism v. socialism. It's protectionism v. free trade, and right now free trade is winning and the American programmer is losing.

Re:Outsourcing is a good thing... (2, Interesting)

mandalayx (674042) | more than 10 years ago | (#8106029)

Outsourcing is a good thing...

Remember that outsourcing is a good thing from the perspective of Finance [wikipedia.org] . Because business is the slave of financial markets, preaching outsourcing to business is really like preaching to the choir.

On the other hand, the social aspect. Forget posessions, forget per capita income. People like the idea of being respected and being safe in their IT jobs. They're being torn apart by outsourcing.

Which party is right? Neither, probably. Just remember that when you join a typical company, its objective is to make money. Don't like that? Start your own...I plan to.

Didn't RTFA ... (0, Troll)

realSpiderman (672115) | more than 10 years ago | (#8105826)

but this article has to be extraordinary, as Michael didn't put even a single flamebait word at the end of the posting.

Now I go reading ... ;-)

Re:Didn't RTFA ... (1)

realSpiderman (672115) | more than 10 years ago | (#8105988)

> but this article has to be extraordinary, as Michael didn't put
> even a single flamebait word at the end of the posting.

**** Michael downmod filter V2.4 **** Rated Troll *****

But nevertheless, the Article was pretty good. Really "a thoughtful look at indian outsourcing"!

No (5, Insightful)

dj28 (212815) | more than 10 years ago | (#8105830)

That's one thing this is NOT about: free trade. Free trade is when an unemployed American computer scientist can go to India to get a job. Guess what? It's impossible for Americans to get work visas in India. Why? Because they are protectionist.

People need to realize that the exodus of jobs is a one-way ticket. Indians can come over here and work as programmers, but Americans can't go to India. This is really a story of the American worker getting shafted by the illusion of "free trade." So let's stop the propaganda and say what it really is.

Re:No (3, Informative)

TwistedSquare (650445) | more than 10 years ago | (#8105860)

Actually AFAIK an Indian programmer would have a pretty hard time going to America and getting a job there, they would similarly need a work permit to work in America. So the propaganda goes both ways.

You do not understand (2, Interesting)

dj28 (212815) | more than 10 years ago | (#8105955)

That's not the point. This point is that Indian workers have the option of coming here and working. By law, it is illegal for Americans to get work visas related to IT in India.

So, here we are in the year 2004. America doesn't have enough IT jobs to support our own programmers. India's IT sector is booming. But guess what? American's are NOT allowed to travel to India to get a job.

This is not free trade. It's the raping of our nation.

Re:No (2, Insightful)

forand (530402) | more than 10 years ago | (#8106005)

My mother works at a law firm that brings about 100 programmers a month from india to the US. The law firm is VERY small, only three lawyers. While it might not be easy to get a work visa for the US it is no impossible as the parent of your reply indicated it was for an american to go to india(which I don't know to be true). Basically while this may be anecdotal, I don't think that it as hard as you are making it out to be. That said, if you are in india and already have a computer much less a programming degree you are much better off then the majority there.

Re:No (2, Interesting)

jabberjaw (683624) | more than 10 years ago | (#8105867)

Honestly, how many American programmers would want to move to India?

Re:No (1)

Kenja (541830) | more than 10 years ago | (#8105974)

"Honestly, how many American programmers would want to move to India?"

Given the choice of moving to Indea or not working, which do you think people would pick? Right now the only choice my friends have (I'm the only person I know with a job) is to sell everything they own and hope that things get better.

Re:No (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8105946)

I don't really see your point. This is about companies outsourcing to India, where the cost of living is low.

If India opened its borders and Americans could mass-migrate to India, so what? Labor would still be cheaper in India. American jobs would still be suffering.

This really is just plain economics. America is inside of a bubble of prosperity and this is the free market's way of correcting it.

Re:No (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8105972)

What?, you mean US industries aren't protected ???...hahah

You have some of the most protected/subsidised industries on earth. It's just time for one particular US business segment to waje up and smell the roses.

You can't keep on racking up all your expenses on your credit card without one day having to start paying the piper. This is what comes of Freedom (tm) and The American Way (pat pend.)

Just live with it ok?, pretty soon it'll be the Chinese sending you food aid.

Re:No (1)

danny256 (560954) | more than 10 years ago | (#8105978)

Guess what? It's impossible for Americans to get work visas in India.

I don't think that's the point. If you want to start a company here creating software for 10 times less that your American competitors, no one is going to stop you and you'll probably get lots of work. The point is that you probably wouldn't do that, and your angry that Indian workers can live comfortably getting paid 10 times less you. If you're really serious about this you could probably find ways to cut your living expenses to the point where it would be feasable to produce code for a very low cost.

Please (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8105985)

This is a total canard. The number of Indian programmers here on H1B is a tiny tiny fraction of the number of jobs that are being outsourced to Indian workers living in India.

It's not the Indian programmers... (5, Insightful)

fildo (683072) | more than 10 years ago | (#8105831)

... it's the white collar execs (and wannabe execs) here in Corporate America that we're mad at!

They get the nice fat promotions and bonuses, while our jobs go elsewhere. And we are the same people they praised just last year as invaluable assets to the company.

So what happened? They can't get rich pulling fancy accounting tricks, so this is what they've resorted to.

I seriously hope that I'm wrong when I predict that this whole thing will fail miserably (taking the off-shore jobs with it).

that easy for you too say... (4, Interesting)

sTalking_Goat (670565) | more than 10 years ago | (#8105832)

. In the end of it, this is what Free Trade is about: people.



I have nothing again'st people making a living, but lets see how your tune changes when they start outsourcing journalist jobs...

With all the Indians working as IT programmers (5, Funny)

phaetonic (621542) | more than 10 years ago | (#8105836)

This leaves the americans with the opportunities to open liquor stores!

As I was told by an Indian man at a liquor store once as I was reading a magazine... "this is not a library, you either buy or get out".

Re:With all the Indians working as IT programmers (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8105879)

reading slashdot + listening to rap = daaaaaaaaaaaaaammmmmmmmmnnnnnnnnnnnn

Good article, and what can you do? (1)

tekiegreg (674773) | more than 10 years ago | (#8105838)

I picked it up in my wired mag yesterday and read it, am I worried? Somewhat, what am I doing? Re-inventing is the only way I can keep head above water.

Already at work the Indians have come, they've worked on one project here quite well. Even though we're hiring American programmers still, Indians are good for the ground level work.

My adaptation? My brain, nobody can stay a drone level coder, I have my double Bachelors in Computers/Human Resources and I'm putting it to work developing and maybe someday deploying my applications in service to my niche.

I'm also contemplating my graduate school options, law school or business school? As far as the Indians go, they won't be able to represent me in court (at least not yet). Management still has possibilities (somebody needs to tell the Indians what to code, or the Indians are merely competition then...).

In short people, FIGHT, FIGHT TO THE DEATH!! Heed the lessons of Bethlehem steel and suffer the consequences of what happens when you are lazy (look up Bethlehem steel on the web if you don't know what I'm talking about). Money is not about sitting on your but and doing nothing, never has, never will!

Re:Good article, and what can you do? (2, Funny)

TrekCycling (468080) | more than 10 years ago | (#8105922)

Actually, there was a day and time when you could make money, feed your family, etc. by just doing a good job day in and day out. That day ended, yes. So I guess apparantly I have to work for 10 years to get my PHD, then invent something in order to have any chance of making any money? Is that the moral of your story? Wow, that's certainly economical. Wal-Mart greeter is looking like the right career move right now.

Re:Good article, and what can you do? (1)

tekiegreg (674773) | more than 10 years ago | (#8106009)

'fraid so my friend...10 years for a PHd gets you just that, a Wal-Mart greeter, if you don't re-invent yourself so you're not the lowest common denominator. One of my favorite quotes as of late has been "If you're job can be done by the lowest common denominator, and you're not that lowest common denominator, then you have a problem...". If your 10 PHd years are now replaceable by a lower denominator...keep looking behind you... sorry man it bites but it is Darwin at it's finest...

Ok free as in freedom. (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8105842)

Companies are free to outsource as they see fit. And workers who are out of work because of outsourcing are free to apply political pressure to stop the outsourcing. If you want to keep your job, get organised. Maybe free trade does not come in favour of the American middle class but rather the very rich. So fight it. It is not in your interests. Fight it. You have a weapon. Your vote.

I read this article... (2, Interesting)

bnet41 (591930) | more than 10 years ago | (#8105848)

and the one thing that I wanted to ask the author was about how the heck is every American supposed to be an innovator? He seems to go over this idea several times, but never really lays down an arguement for it. This article constantly talks about how Americans need to become innovators for the world, as this seems to be his idea of the evolution of a knowledge worker. This is you typical sensational type reporting that Wired likes to do, and only seems to share half the situation.

Disparate mobility (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8105851)

In the end of it, this is what Free Trade is about: people.
As long as Free Trade doesn't include Free Migration, it's about the work, not the workers. India is more than happy to have your job, but it doesn't want you.

this is what Free Trade is about: people (1)

cant_get_a_good_nick (172131) | more than 10 years ago | (#8105852)

Shouldn't this be a semi-colon? Am I the only one that wanted to type about:people into Mozilla?

Interesting indeed (5, Interesting)

Frisky070802 (591229) | more than 10 years ago | (#8105855)

This article was very thought-provoking. I know someone who left the USA to return to India and start an outsourcing company in the mid-90s, before it was fashionable. I never thought he'd be so successful, but it's clear this model has taken off. In the end, Americans who cry foul have to offer a reason for cost-conscious companies to employ them instead of offshore alternatives. This article demonstrates the opposite -- the effectiveness and quality of these cheaper alternatives.

In the end, I do think it'll be a while before the "highest level" of IT (such as research labs) find comparable counterparts at that deep a discount. People who are worried about their job moving offshore should think about how they can do things that can't move as easily, perhaps by increasing their education (MS/PhD)...

Re:Interesting indeed (2, Interesting)

Gutboy (587531) | more than 10 years ago | (#8105941)

Great, I'll just go back to school for 3-4 more years. My family can just starve, and live in the carboard box out back.

Wired articles (0, Offtopic)

fihzy (214410) | more than 10 years ago | (#8105869)

I know the point of Slashdot is to collect and present stories of interest to technology oriented people, but is there really any need to print at least one story from each print edition of Wired, every single month without fail? I already have a wired subscription thanks! :-P

america are overpaid? (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8105870)

Could it just be that because of America's prosperity has created a "bubble" in the american labor market over the past decades?

Maybe all americans are simply overpaid and we're in for a BIG correction in the coming years?

Kinda scary.

Re:america are overpaid? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8105949)

q38ughq

Patent pending (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8105873)

I've patented outsourcing jobs to India. If your company is doing that, please let me know, since a hefty license fee ($699 for a developer, $35 for embedded systems develop) will be charged.

Outsourcing ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8105874)

As long as these companies are not shipping my private info overseas for processing, then I don't have a problem with it.

If companies do routinly ship this data without a customer's knowledge, THEN I HAVE A PROBLEM!!

Hate to be Matthew Mahon (0, Offtopic)

kyoko21 (198413) | more than 10 years ago | (#8105881)

I sure would hate to be him right now. Is he looking for a deathwish or something?

intuition (1)

theMerovingian (722983) | more than 10 years ago | (#8105889)


My genetically modified flower tells me that this Slashdot article is going to be a landmine!

(hides under cubicle)

Balancing (1)

Klatoo55 (726789) | more than 10 years ago | (#8105894)

Capitalism is a self-regulating system. The glut of money in the U.S. has resulted in us sending money and jobs overseas, distributing the wealth. It's nothing new.

interesting passages (2, Interesting)

mandalayx (674042) | more than 10 years ago | (#8105895)

"Don't you think we're helping the US economy by doing the work here?" asks an exasperated Lalit Suryawanshi. It frees up Americans to do other things so the economy can grow, adds Jairam.
-----
Maniar uncorks an aphorism that he doesn't realize I've heard 8,000 times before (in part because American white-collar workers have long said it to their blue-collar compadres) - and that I don't realize I'll hear several times again during my stay: "There's nothing permanent except change."
-----
The experience did more than capsize his work life. It battered his belief system. He's long espoused the virtues of free trade. He says that he supported Nafta and that for 12 years he's subscribed to The Economist, a hymnal in the free trade church. But now he's questioning core beliefs. "These are theories that have really not been tested and proven," he says. "We're using people's lives to do this experiment - to find out what happens."
-----
"Someday," Janish says, "another nation will take business from India." Perhaps China or the Philippines, which are already competing for IT work.

"When that happens, how will you respond?" I ask.

"I think you must have read Who Moved My Cheese?" Aparna says to my surprise.

amazing, they read American motivational books. btw, I recommend the book to you. very short book, you can read it in barnes and noble..
-----
For US workers, the path beyond services seems uncertain. But again, history provides a guide. Thirty years ago, another form of outsourcing hit the US service sector: the computer. That led to a swarm of soulless processing machines, promoted by management consultants and embraced by profit-obsessed executives gobbling jobs in a push for efficiency. If today's cry of the displaced is "They sent my job to India!" yesterday's was "I was replaced by a computer!"

Then, as now, the potential for disruption seemed infinite. Data crunching was just the start. Soon electronic brains would replace most of the accounting department, the typing pool, and the switchboard. After that, the thinking went, the modern corporation would apply the same technology to middle management, business analysis, and, ultimately, decisionmaking. If your job was emptying an inbox and filling an outbox, you were begging for someone to draw the I/O analogy - and act on it. Indeed, computer terminology is littered with traces of what were formerly jobs: printers, monitors, file managers; even computers themselves used to be people, not machines.

Computers have, of course, reshaped the workplace. But they have also proved remarkably effective at creating jobs. Bookkeepers of old, adding columns in ledgers, are today's financial analysts, wielding Excel and PowerPoint in boardroom strategy sessions. Secretaries have morphed into executive assistants, more aides-de-camp than stenographers. Typesetters have become designers. True, in many cases different people filled the new jobs, leaving millions painfully displaced, but over time the net effect was positive - for workers and employers alike.


If you've read this much, check out the article. I liked it...just remember to question everything you hear :)

Rather pointless article (5, Interesting)

khyron664 (311649) | more than 10 years ago | (#8105896)

Outsourcing isn't the magic arrow CEOs want it to be. This article doesn't really address anything important at all. Ratings are pretty meaningless. I know parts of companies that are rated at SEI Level 5, but produce some of the worst crap I've seen. They're rated well though, so they much be good.

Why doesn't someone write an article about all the times outsourcing has been tried before? How about what happened with Malaysia? How about the fact that the overhead involved in trying to manage people half-way around the world is higher than the amount they save by outsourcing? This isn't a new fad people. Sure, the people and the places change but the problems don't.

Things are different now than they were in the 80's I'll grant you, but no one seems to be drawing the comparisons. Health Care costs are rising in the US, thus possibly providing better savings when outsourcing now. However, it's not like this is a new concept and that the problems aren't well known. Let's see some hard questions asked and analysis done based on past experience!

Khyron

The problems with outsourcing (5, Interesting)

SilentSage (656382) | more than 10 years ago | (#8105903)

This article makes interesting advertising for outsourcing firms and raises some very valid points but hardly can be considered either objective or entirely factual. The article talks about the quality of Indian IT firms (and they do have some high quality professional firms). However, they fail to mention the many negative experiences U.S. firms have had with botched projects, poor service and support compounded by language issues despite claims that Indian English skills are adequate (albeit this is not true in every instance). One of the main issues offsetting these facts is that they work for a tenth of what their US counterparts do. Companies find it cost effective to allow them to make these mistakes and learn from them (which they seem to be doing). Outsourcing is a minefield that can lead to extraordinary success or disastrous failure. From an economic perspective the cost savings you reap from outsourcing you pay for in the long term (as a nation) by the erosion of your markets buying power. 3 Million consumers in your home market (making $70,000 dollars a year) are replaced by consumers in a market hostile to foreign competition making $8000 dollars a year (for the top tier anyway). Sooner or later America will realize this and legislation will be put into place to stop it. But in the meantime hang onto your seats

Govt work (1)

kevin_conaway (585204) | more than 10 years ago | (#8105908)

There are plenty of jobs for government agencies and firms that do a lot of contracting for the government (defense). Your average programming job for financial software or something equally mundane is going somewhere else.

Most of the menial programming jobs that can be modularized so to speak, are going away. Innovation and product specialty is here (for now at least)

Outsourcing experiences (1)

bendelo (737558) | more than 10 years ago | (#8105913)

Some of my good friends at uni are Indian (or at least British Indian), I have the greatest respect for their intelligence. However my experiences with Dell tech support (ie, Bangalore) left me with a negative impression of my outsourced asian counterparts. The reason for this was probably the training they had been given by Dell, to dispose of calls quickly and blame problems on the users. As with most slashdotters I only call technical support with problems I cannot fix myself (hardware). To be told that 'the system is working as specified' over and over again, (despite hardware interupts consuming 99% of my processor!) only annoyed me. Eventually it took the threat of legal action against Dell for my computer to be fixed. I don't believe it would have progressed this far had I been able to speak with someone local. Please understand I am not against outsourcing of jobs to India, only that big corporations exploit such workers to 'fob off' customers.

India (3, Interesting)

Fizzlewhiff (256410) | more than 10 years ago | (#8105917)

I guess things have quieted down now or perhaps we in the US have just lost interest. But there was a time where I am sure a few CEO's and CIO's had to be worried how long it would be before their big software project went up in a giant Pakistani mushroom cloud.

Do political situations, like the border skirmishes near Kashmir, ever get discussed when it comes to making these outsourcing decisions? If India was thrown into a state of turmoil due to an attack from Pakistan what would happen to outsourced projects? Or if India attacked Pakistan in a way that the US felt was too severe and sanctions were put into place against India, what would happen to these contracts?

From someone on the fence. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8105923)

My unique dillema is as follows:
I am an Indian who has a "Permanent Resident" status. BUT, I am unemployed. I understand what the Pilgrim Americans (I cannot call them Native Americans :)) are going through since I am with them in it. I can also NOT go back to India because I want to keep the PR status (you have to be in US for 6 months to keep it valid). Sigh.

Let me understand... (1, Interesting)

tkrotchko (124118) | more than 10 years ago | (#8105925)

Somebody goes to an Indian outsourcing firm and asks them what they think about Indian outsourcing?

And then its supposed to be interesting and insightful when they say "Hey, this is really good for you guys, no really!"?

Important suggestion on saving your job (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8105928)

Kiwiko Suggests an Enema

'I now give enema,' Kiwiko said as if it were the most natural thing in the world.

'Enema?' echoed Paul.

'Yes, an enema,' she said matter of factly.

'What on earth for, Kiwiko?' Paul demanded. He was completely at a loss. First he thought he hadn't heard her properly or that perhaps an enema meant something different to her. But now it seemed that she meant what she said.

'Best Japanese girls always give enema,' she said smiling.

'But, Kiwiko, I don't want an enema. Why should I want an enema?'

'You always have enema with best Japanese girl. You must be clean inside as well as outside. You enjoy too,' she spoke reassuringly.

He had never heard that there were prostitutes in any part of the world that gave enemas to their clients before sex. It must be something peculiar to Hokkaido, or was it just an idiosyncrasy of hers?

'I'm not sure that I want an enema, Kiwiko,' said Paul now speaking in earnest. 'I've never had an enema and I don't particularly want to start now. I want to make love to you.

'You must have enema,' she said firmly. 'If you never have one you are not clean inside. Besides many men they like and enjoy as much as sex. It is like what you call an orgasm. Some men they can come with enema. And I will help you in other ways.

'Well, if you are sure, then I suppose I'll have to have it.' It sounded rather bizarre but if some men got an orgasm from an enema and she was also ready to assist him, then it might be worth trying, he decided.

'Englishman right to have enema with Japanese girl,' she said. 'Now I get you ready.'

He was sitting on a low bed but the girl now asked him to stand up whereupon she placed a rubber-covered board over the bed and asked him to lie down on it.

'You lie on left side,' she told him as he placed himself on the firm rubber board.

When he was in the right position she pushed his left leg forward and felt for his anus. He felt her fingers which she had quickly lubricated with her saliva pressing against his anus and a moment later one finger must have penetrated perhaps half an inch, though with some difficulty. She drew it out and as it was insufficiently lubricated it seemed to draw the membrane with it and Paul began to feel uncomfortable. But it was something worth putting up with he decided, for it wasn't everyday you had a Japanese teenager pushing a finger into your arse.

Kiwiko had now used a tube of lubricant and at this stage of proceedings continued to explore with her fingers, parts of his anus.

Japanese Preliminaries

She pushed her finger into his anus again and this time it slid in a little further, but she was still finding considerable resistance from the sphincter muscle. She enjoyed these preliminaries and was certainly in no hurry. She was certain, too, that unless her client was very different from other men he would soon begin to get a considerable amount of pleasure from the way her finger worked on his anus. He did.

It was the first time any woman had ever touched him in that part of his body, or, for that matter anyone of either sex had touched him. He found it pleasing at first and gradually it became almost exciting. He liked the way she kept lubricating her finger and then pushing it gently into the orifice, a fraction further each time. Then she would make a gentle attempt to widen the hole slightly before withdrawing her finger to lubricate it again.

He felt his whole body relaxing to the unique massage of his anal orifice and he had soon decided that it was an erogenous zone that he would have to pay more attention to in future. It was also a strangely pleasant thing to have a girl paying such a lot of attention to a part of the body that is generally despised and neglected.

He thought she must be almost ready to go ahead with the enema, and as suspected, she told him that she was not going to give him the enema.

'While your bottom is relaxed and you are excited, that is best time,' she announced.

Paul was now ready to believe in her judgment implicitly and he eagerly waited while she prepared the enema.

She busied herself in an adjoining room and a few minutes later she came in carrying a large jug. Judging from the steam the jug must have contained a hot liquid. Kiwiko then moved a small stand into the room to which was fixed a glass jar, narrowing at the bottom to a short tube (reminding him of the upper part of a coffee percolator) to which was attached a long rubber tube fitted with a stop-cock and nozzle.

Kiwiko brought the stand which moved on noiseless casters close to the bed and after adjusting the stop-cock she poured some of the liquid from the jug into the glass jar. It was cooler now and looked to Paul like soapy water.

The young girl then took the temperature of the fluid.

'It is a little hot for you yet,' was her comment, 'But I prepare the nozzle.'

The nozzle, attached to the end of the rubber tube, was about a quarter of an inch in diameter at its widest part, Kiwiko took a tube of what appeared to be a lubricant and smeared it over the nozzle.

She bent over Paul, pushed him into position and then slowly urged the nozzle into his anus. Paul felt like a man on an operating table. His heart began to beat faster and for a fleeting moment he almost got to his feet to tell her he was not going to go through with it.

But when he felt her calming hands on his buttocks he relaxed again. She appeared to know what she was going to use, and however strange it might be it wouldn't kill him, he decided. The, after all, he was going to enjoy the pleasure of her body afterwards: what did an enema matter if you got the beautiful young Japanese girl's body in return?

Kiwiko Administers an Enema

She flexed his right leg again and pushed the nozzle deeper into his rectum. Paul could feel it, but he was rather surprised that it didn't hurt at all. As he had never had anything inserted into his rectum in his life before he had assumed that it would be painful.

The fluid now flowed into him and he could feel it inside, creeping higher and higher. When he began to feel the weight of the water was going to be too much for him to hold he half turned to her.

'Don't turn round,' she said quickly, 'or it will be extremely painful. I'm switching off now.

He lay there with the warm water inside him, trying to persuade himself that he was going to be really clean for her. After all it had not been so bad, much less painful than he had expected and at the end of it was - Kiwiko.

She stroked his head gently and then reached down to take his limp penis in her hand.

'You like?' she suggested.

'Like what?' he wasn't sure whether she meant the enema or the way she was fondling his cock.

'The enema?' He asked her again.

'Well, I meant all the things that I am doing to you,' she said. 'You see a Japanese girl likes to please her man.

'Of course,' said Paul. 'I like everything you do, even the enema.'

He was growing erect and he wondered whether she would bring him to an orgasm with the enema still inside him.

But after a while she let go of him and told him to get ready to use the bedpan she had placed near the bed. He really didn't fancy the ides of using a bedpan in her presence, but she said there was no alternative as the lavatory was on the next floor.

He got to his feet, sat on the bedpan and released the fluid. It took a minute or two before he felt that all had been evacuated.

But as he got to his feet again more water trickled from his anus and she told him to sit down again. After another minute or two he felt sure that he had evacuated himself thoroughly.

When he got to his feet Kiwiko came over and wiped him. No one had ever done that to him since he was a baby, he thought.

The warm water had all been ejected and he felt a strange kind of emptiness. He was still in a state of sexual arousal and now more than ever eager to get his hands on Kiwiko.

The girl quickly removed the pan from the room and then pushed out the enema stand and the other paraphernalia. When she came back into the room she closed the door with an air of finality and joined him on the bed.

'You feel better?' she asked him, smiling into his eyes.

'Yes, I do. It was an extraordinary experience for me. I think I shall enjoy it even more next time. But you can see,' he moved her hand to his swollen prick -you can see how you have affected me.'

'Yes, now I make love to you, yes?'

She stroked his throbbing organ for a moment or two and then after briefly kissing his lips, she concentrated on his penis.

He shuddered with excitement, hardly able to control himself. rolling his head from side to side as she roused him to fever pitch.

'Oh, please stop now,' he gasped, almost on the edge of orgasm, he lay back to stroke her hair until he felt able to let her continue.

'Come to me,' he asked her and drew her up the bed until he could kiss her soft, warm lips. 'You mustn't make me come too quickly, my darling,' he told her as he took her in his arms and slid one hand to her thighs.

'Yes, darling, I understand,' was her soft rejoinder.

He lay with her in his arms for a while and then he moved her onto her back, looking down at her girlish attractions before moving between her thighs.

He had time to look at her properly now and he thought she must be younger than she had claimed. Her face was so unbelievably beautiful that he almost began to hate himself for using her. She ought to be the wife of some very kind or very rich man instead of letting men use her body for payment.

Her breasts were a little larger than he had expected and despite the sense of fragility that he felt about her she nevertheless had a nice buoyant body with good arms and strong though slim thighs.

He pushed his penis into the inviting lips and then he slid into her. She wasn't large, he was pleased to discover, and when he was right inside her she gripped him tightly for a moment to show him that she could hold him inside her if she so desired.

Now he lowered himself, all his weight on top of her, and she at once put her legs around him. When their mouths met again it was almost electrifying. Her beautiful mouth at once triggered off the most delicious feelings in his body and as the sensations moved to his genitals he started to move inside her.

Kiwiko had had only a few men and it was still an exciting experience for her. She liked this Englishman and she was ready to enjoy herself with him, forgetting for the time being all the problems in her life. She felt his phallus begin its invasion of her treasure. His lips were on hers and he slowly began his thrusting movements into her soft warm sheath. He reached the top and then he drew it down the clinging sheath again before impelling it into her, now deeper then before, urging it to the very hilt till he felt their pelvises crunch together, their pubic hair enmeshed. His tongue now probed her sweet mouth, tasting her saliva as the first pre-orgasmic spasm took his breath away.

Kiwiko squirmed and pulled him tighter as he rested for a moment inside her, taking a deep breath to inhibit the involuntary spasms of his prick, and then he bent her thighs up and she moved her legs to his shoulders.

Looking down at her now he could see his prick entering and leaving her as he moved up and down, a sight which at once intensified his desire for her. Slowly he increased the tempo of his thrusts into her lovely cunt, often using a screwing movement to provoke and stimulate her to the maximum, probing and racking the luscious, gripping membrane as her muscular spasms came faster and faster and as her body responded completely to his energetic, body-penetrating thrusts.

His hands moved under her buttocks, one in each palm; then he dug his finger-nails deep into her girlish flesh until he could feel the hard rod of his prick moving inside her. Then from mild thrusts he began to ram his greedy phallus into her with lustful abandon, felt his prick pulsate on the edge of orgasm, and in a few brief moments of tempestuous, uncontrolled sexual ecstasy, he came in a climax it was impossible to control. He sent his spunk into her soft, girlish flesh, sent it deep into her innermost recesses, filling her with it and provoking her to rapturous cries of delight as she twisted in uncontrollable ecstasy.

The problem with outsourcing . . . . . (0, Redundant)

SilentSage (656382) | more than 10 years ago | (#8105930)

This article makes interesting advertising for outsourcing firms and raises some very valid points but hardly can be considered either objective or entirely factual. The article talks about the quality of Indian IT firms (and they do have some high quality professional firms). However, they fail to mention the many negative experiences U.S. firms have had with botched projects, poor service and support compounded by language issues despite claims that Indian English skills are adequate (albeit this is not true in every instance). One of the main issues offsetting these facts is that they work for a tenth of what their US counterparts do. Companies find it cost effective to allow them to make these mistakes and learn from them (which they seem to be doing). Outsourcing is a minefield that can lead to extraordinary success or disastrous failure. From an economic perspective the cost savings you reap from outsourcing you pay for in the long term (as a nation) by the erosion of your markets buying power. 3 Million consumers in your home market (making $70,000 dollars a year) are replaced by consumers in a market hostile to foreign competition making $8000 dollars a year (for the top tier anyway). Sooner or later America will realize this and legislation will be put into place to stop it. But in the meantime hang onto your seats.

A geographical note... (0)

Thomas Miconi (85282) | more than 10 years ago | (#8105936)

For all the people reading this (especially outside the UK and the US) and wondering why they've never heard about this city called "Mumbai"...

...it's just Bombay [tifr.res.in] .

Thomas Miconi

Really? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8105937)

I have no problem with a competetive atmosphere, however when it comes down to the question of my children or thiers, I choose mine. If I am to be the means by which my family succeeds in life, then to hell with them -- slap up restrictions on outsourcing and keep in within the borders.

If they don't like it, tough, they can come up with their own solutions like we have.

How to Stop Outsourcing (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8105939)

There's only one thing that always works, in any situation, and that is violence. When US executives realize that if they sell out their own people they might die, I think we'll see them curtail outsourcing.

Maybe Mikey will stop fucking with his employees if they start fucking with him:

MICHAEL DELL
3400 TORO CANYON RD
AUSTIN, TX 78716

A handy map [mapquest.com]

Lets slap a face on this thing (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8105940)

Well just today my company informed me that they will be cutting my salary in half. If I dont like it Im welcome to find a job somewhere else. The final comment is what ticked me off. "We can hire an offshore worker for 1/3 of what we pay you." I laughed. I worked with ALOT of offshore workers and they have yet to complete ANY tasks we assigned them.

Re:Lets slap a face on this thing (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8106019)

Sounds like they slapped a face on it. It also sounds like after they slapped a face on it, they slapped a dot on that face.

India for free markets? Not! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8105960)

If India is really about free trade then let US workers follow the jobs to India. Oddly, India has laws making it very difficult for gringos to move there, even as they push for more opportunities to come here.

Related Despair Poster (1)

wcbrown (184278) | more than 10 years ago | (#8105975)

This seems relevant, though perhaps less thoughtful:

Discovery [despair.com]

Just more hype (5, Interesting)

jafac (1449) | more than 10 years ago | (#8105982)

That's all this Indian Outsourcing thing is.

Are there really really good, really smart Indian programmers? Of course there are! But overall, on the average, outsourcing will end up biting most companies in the ass, in the long run. There are hidden costs to it, like the 11 hour time difference, language barriers, cultural differences (anecdotally, from many accounts, Indians tend not to raise questions, or think independently when a design sucks, etc.)

Worse yet, this will bite the US Software industry in the ass when we suffer from brain drain - when software engineering is no longer a sought after degree. Then the Indians will start their own companies, and eat our lunches.

Worse still - with the decimation of these high-paying jobs, comes an overall lowering of the standard of living here in the US. These companies got rich by selling to the richest market in the world - American consumers. By gutting their own customers, these companies are shooting themselves in the foot.

- - -
That said - the writing, in big letters, in crayon, is:
Investors should believe that a wise company outsources, because it's a move towards efficiency. It will eliminate those overpaid "web designers" that are sapping corporate profits. Companies are "cutting fat". It's perceived as a gutsy move.

Actually, it's the herd mentality. "Oh my god! IBM's outsourcing, they're going to KILL us unless we outsource too."

But mainly - it's a movement designed to lure investment dollars back to the Tech Industry. It's basically hype. Companies who outsource are selling stock. Not products and services. This is their motivation, their drive. And it's very much a herd mentality. Among investors, AND corporations. They may be heading off a cliff. They may be heading to the slaughterhouse. Or perhaps greener pastures. But make no mistake. The Outsourcing Movement is NOT a drive to offer better service, or find better talent, or even save real money. It's a drive to LOOK like they are.

Outsourcing Jobs (2, Insightful)

R33MSpec (631206) | more than 10 years ago | (#8105987)

A couple of points to ponder;

(1) Being a software engineer just out of university - i'm currently working at a major bank which has it's own Indian software development wing. Quite a few large Australian companies do this and have already gotten rid of 'small' amounts of in-house developers.

(2) This 'outsourcing' phenomenon is very cyclical in nature, and India happens to be the flavour of the month - in a decade it'll probably be some other developing country.

(3) To best protect yourself from this is too be helpful in other areas of the business. Become more involved in the 'business end' of the company, looking at bettering processes, even start training people.

(4) Not everything can be outsourced, focus on continuous self improvement in *ALL* areas of your working life and you shouldn't have anything to worry about.

I'm taking an Indian's job away (3, Interesting)

geekoid (135745) | more than 10 years ago | (#8105991)

I've been out of work and interviewing. Every company I interviewed with has opening because they're bringing their outsorced projects back.

Granted, it's not 6 figures like 5 years ago, but it's still nice.

Outsourcing dollars (1)

pleasetryanotherchoi (702466) | more than 10 years ago | (#8105997)

The problem is not so much job outsourcing as it is dollar exportation. When our already embattled middle class collapses, those businesses which made money through such cost-cutting strategies as outsourcing will discover they have no one left to sell to. I say this as a staunch antiprotectionist.

An indian programmer might be able to live on $11,000 a year, but she won't be buying any GM products, either.

Jeebus... when can we get our CTO outsourced? (1)

rsborg (111459) | more than 10 years ago | (#8106011)

If these people are as smart as the article states, and corporations are as amoral as the average slashdotter thinks...

2... ???

3 convergence!!

The myth of free trade & the unproductive Amer (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8106022)

In the end of it, this is what Free Trade is about: people. This article makes that clear."
If it were about free trade, I could freely follow my outsourced job to wherever it is sent. If it were about free trade, no immigration restrictions would prevent me from living in an economy where a car isn't required, middle class people have houskeepers and homes don't average $150,000. If it were about people, then the 40 year old U.S. worker might get more than 0-7 days of vacation for the first decade of their employment, a bit of flexibility to live a life and raise a family and more than .05 seconds of warning before a redundancy. I'm not knocking India or other outsourcing locations, but too many companies fail to recognize home grown quality and talent.

outsource congress outsource Bush outsource CEOs
It's all about people!
--followed my job...
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