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4 Years Later, The Mozilla Tide Has Turned

timothy posted more than 10 years ago | from the more-than-slightly dept.

Mozilla 923

dave writes "In 1999, I editorialized that the browser was the battleground that would win or lose us the whole thing. 4 years later, in light of the excellent Firefox 0.8 release it is time to update the article with a slightly more optimistic view."

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Don't forget... (-1, Troll)

SCO$699FeeTroll (695565) | more than 10 years ago | (#8249966)

...to pay your $699 licensing fee you cock-smoking teabaggers.

you fucking SUCCEED it (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8250039)

good job on the first post

can i suck your cock??

i have FROSTED (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8249972)

propz to the GNAA

fp

i just took a piss on a dead palestinian girl!

i fucking fail it (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8250009)

i have dishonored my family AND that DEAD PALESTINIAN GIRL

Re:i have FROSTED (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8250178)

I just fucked a living Jewish girl. But she was shit. The dead Palestinian I had last week was better. Those hook-noses are really a turn-off.

Look ay my FireFox (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8249974)

and love it...

The tides have changed.. Positive outlook (5, Interesting)

eyeareque (454991) | more than 10 years ago | (#8249986)


Yesterday I rebuilt my sisters windows 2000 machine. I installed gaim for her, and also ad aware then let her install whatever other apps she wanted.. The funny thing is, she called me later last night asking where she could download firebird because she hates internet explorer. I thought to myself, wow, how the tides have changed.

Creative Criticism: The DHTML or whatever is used to give the advanced editing features of Exchange 2000 web mail, msn hotmail, yahoo mail, and the geocities web site editor don't work in Firebird; If they did my sister, my mom and many other web users would never use IE again.

Re:The tides have changed.. Positive outlook (5, Interesting)

AKAImBatman (238306) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250024)

Creative Criticism: The DHTML or whatever is used to give the advanced editing features of Exchange 2000 web mail, msn hotmail, yahoo mail, and the geocities web site editor don't work in Firebird; If they did my sister, my mom and many other web users would never use IE again.

Amusingly enough, they don't always work in IE either. My mother and sister where having problems with not being able to type in the Rich Text Control. I showed them how to turn it off every time, but it was still very annoying. I finally gave them Firebird 0.7. No rich text controls, no pop up ads, no viruses, just pure web browsing bliss. They haven't looked back. :-)

Re:The tides have changed.. Positive outlook (4, Insightful)

Suppafly (179830) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250052)

I always use firebird to check my exchange webmail for work.. The basic features seems to work better in firebird than IE.. Now if I could just figure out what the firebird setting for "Check for a new version of the page everytime" like there is in IE, so I'd stop getting cached versions of static pages from our proxy at work.

Re:The tides have changed.. Positive outlook (2, Interesting)

robslimo (587196) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250070)

I assume that she's an average user? Maybe she's a little more intellectually active and can better form her own judgements than the average (l)user. Anyway, it's still encouraging.

I sincerely hope Firefox proves out. I've not tried it yet; still using Mozilla here. I have preferred Moz over IE for its extra features (anti-popup, image blocking, etc) but its bloat is pretty much on par with IE, IMO. I'd certainly like something that offers the best features of both in a tamer package.

I guess I'd better stop wondering and give Firefox a try.

Re:The tides have changed.. Positive outlook (4, Interesting)

jgalun (8930) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250083)

Creative Criticism: The DHTML or whatever is used to give the advanced editing features of Exchange 2000 web mail, msn hotmail, yahoo mail, and the geocities web site editor don't work in Firebird; If they did my sister, my mom and many other web users would never use IE again.

That would be a nice feature to have...but I believe that this is a Microsoft proprietary extension to the JavaScript DOM, not a standard. Which is not to say that the Mozilla team is incapable of reproducing it, just that they may have some qualms about it.

Lets help (1)

Adolph_Hitler (713286) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250114)

We need to use the firefox ad button on our websites. Why doesnt slashdot have a "best viewed with firefox" icon up?

Re:Lets help (5, Insightful)

Des Herriott (6508) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250149)

Because the only phrase that should follow "Best viewed with " is "any browser".

Re:Lets help (5, Funny)

Ilgaz (86384) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250171)

No! Instead put W3C logo at bottom that it complies to W3C standards completely... at bottom of slashdot..

http://validator.w3.org/

Wait a minute..

Re:The tides have changed.. Positive outlook (4, Interesting)

TulioSerpio (125657) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250146)

Look here, but ojo! its experimental Mozilla activeControl [www.iol.ie]

From the Article (5, Insightful)

SpyPlane (733043) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250153)

I must say that the Mozilla project has breathed new life into the web, and as a side-effect, into the Linux desktop.

Indeed. I was laughing the other day about how I am excited to go browse a webpage again. I was tinkering with the features of firefox, and was just loving it. I had used Mozilla on my Linux box at home, but to be using firefox at work on my Win2k machine is absolutely refreshing. Keep up the good work guys.

But what about my question? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8249987)

You Are Ell or Earl?

Netscape 7.1 : The best browser for Windows so far (-1, Offtopic)

DR SoB (749180) | more than 10 years ago | (#8249990)

I just tried out Netscape 7.1, and I must say, I was really impressed. Having used many web browsers (and even programming my own), Netscape 7 is by far the best. Built in pop-up blocking, way better cookie handling (and cookie management), faster download times, a better download manager, are just a few of the benefits that I've already noticed, and I've only been using it for a short time..

Re:Netscape 7.1 : The best browser for Windows so (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8250044)

DUDE!!! You're so clueless but still desperate in mentioning that there is a good browser for windows... This is slashdot where people enjoy to Flame M$ for what they are (ASSHOLES) and you have the balls to mention that "Net^H^H^HMozilla is the best browser for windows"...

OMFG.. why don't you just fuck yourself instead of writing your clueless crap here... maybe you should stop being a halfass geek and waste your life with a girl instead!!!

OMFG!!!!

Re:Netscape 7.1 : The best browser for Windows so (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8250108)

OMFG!!!!

The only people I've ever seen use that line *are* girls. You wouldn't by any chance be one, would you?

Re:Netscape 7.1 : The best browser for Windows so (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8250179)

Why don't you ask your mother?

Oh.. and fuck yourself...

Re:Netscape 7.1 : The best browser for Windows so (2, Interesting)

Jim_Maryland (718224) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250045)

I haven't tried out all the browsers available, but I must agree that Netscape 7.1 is a nice product. Definitely much better than Internet Explorer.

I've installed this browser on several family members PC's that I support, and they all say never realized that other browsers were available. After they used it a couple of times, they found they actually like it better than IE too.

Netscape is dead (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8250068)

Move on. 7.1 is the final version. Go get Mozilla or Firefox, where the updates keep coming.

Who is dave? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8249996)

And why does it matter what he editorialized in 1999?

XBox rules!! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8250003)

first post!!! you lame assholes... I can post first because my XBox is a american product and my pride in my great country and my great XBox accelerate everything...

If only they would make games for that bitch... IAve played Metroid Prime and it ruled... I hope M$ will buy those japanese bastards and port Metroid to my great american console system!!!

Sad news ... Stephen King dead at 56 (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8250006)


I just heard some sad news on talk radio - Horror/Sci Fi writer Stephen King was found dead in his Maine home this morning. There weren't any more details. I'm sure everyone in the Slashdot community will miss him - even if you didn't enjoy his work, there's no denying his contributions to popular culture. Truly an American icon.

Re:Sad news ... Stephen King dead at 56 (-1, Offtopic)

Warlover (267127) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250050)

WTF! Oh that sucks!

Already? (-1, Offtopic)

Knuckles (8964) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250007)

So, you submitted the story yourself, yet after 3 replies at time of writing you are already slashdotted? Good work, dude :o)

Re:Already? (2, Funny)

Minwee (522556) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250047)

That doesn't make sense. It means that people would have to be reading the article _before_ commenting.

Re:Already? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8250067)

How is this off topic? Fucking moderators don;t no shit about shit.

The tide is high, but are we rolling on.... (4, Interesting)

overbyj (696078) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250010)

I agree that Mozilla has come a long way but unfortunately, as long as there is a very large computer company in the Pacific northwest that shall remain nameless continues to more tightly integrate their nameless browser into the OS, Mozilla stands little chance overall. Sure, I love Mozilla on Linux and OS X but there are sooooooo many people that respond " Mo...what?" when I mention it to them.

Kudos to the Mozilla team for Firefox. It is pretty sweet. Let's hope that the nameless company in the Pacific northwest loses it grip on the browser market. Not likely, but we can always hope.

Re:The tide is high, but are we rolling on.... (1)

lfourrier (209630) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250087)

yeah, but each time I'm with friends and they surf, and they get popups, I show them fire(bird-fox), and tabbed browsing.

a few week later, they only launch ie when obliged.

Re:The tide is high, but are we rolling on.... (5, Interesting)

HairyCanary (688865) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250092)

If the nameless software company in the Pacific Northwest keeps deleting features from their browser, and making it less and less standards compliant, then Mozilla WILL take off.

At my company, users are switching in droves today, as a direct result of the IE patch our helpdesk pushed out yesterday.

A vote for Kerry is a vote against Freedom! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8250123)

See for yourself [drudgereport.com] .

Kerry would turn US into UN's puppet. The organization where rogue countries like Libya and Iran are allowed not only to sit in but also chair commitees like the commitee of human rights.

Vote for Kerry and you're voting against Freedom and Human Rights everywhere!

happens in the best families (-1, Offtopic)

Jotaigna (749859) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250015)

from teme to time, even the greatest had lost its faith.

I remember... (5, Interesting)

cozziewozzie (344246) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250018)

...when Mozilla was the poster child for how NOT to run a project: hopelessly behind schedule, slow, bloated, leaking memory left and right. And there were people who kept saying that the Mozilla guys would get it working and that it would be a kickass browser.

Guess what? They were right after all. Congratulations to the Mozilla team and thanks for the excellent browser(s)!

Re:I remember... (1, Insightful)

gcaseye6677 (694805) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250063)

Remember who the parent company was, at that time.

One thing against it... (1, Interesting)

Sheetrock (152993) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250020)

Who knows what Firefox is? Chrome? Phoenix? Camino? Thunderbird?

Internet Explorer is commonly known and integrated in the great majority of computers. It's a standard anybody in the web business programs to. Mozilla could be a contender, but it's split into a million projects and still chokes on a number of websites. Most people I know have never heard of it, and to my knowledge even AOL is still using Internet Explorer. There is no tide; IE's the ocean.

Re:One thing against it... (1)

sporty (27564) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250148)

So is word, excel, vb for excel, vb for word, access, powerpoint etc...

Re:One thing against it... (5, Insightful)

pytheron (443963) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250161)

and still chokes on a number of websites


If 'programmers' adhered to well documented standards, and stopped trying to make eye candy by biting on the non-standard hooks in IE, then you'd find that the problem of choking would pretty much vanish.


It is a very clever strategy of microsoft to release a non-standard adhering browser, since as they currently control the vast majority on desktop machines, they puppet 'programmers' into doing their dirty work for them (keeping people on the MS platform).


The less tech-savvy of us will of course assume "this browser sucks, it can't render this page correctly", when it is the page itself that can't be rendered properly within standards guidelines.

Re:One thing against it... (1)

diersing (679767) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250191)

Internet Explorer is commonly known and integrated in the great majority of computers as it comes bundled with Windows, that's not all that great of an observation.

It's a standard anybody in the web business programs to I hope you don't mean program as write code, but subscibe to in a business sense. If that is the case, your rephrasing your first point and it adds no value to a contradiction to the article.

Mozilla could be a contender, but it's split into a million project as a mozilla user, i know of the current browser (1.6?), Firefox (lets remember this IS a beta we're talking about), Thunderbird - a mail client, and some MAC OSX only broswer that I'm too lazy to go get the name of. My point is, that's 4 projects, please name the other 999,996 please cause I'd like to explore their other products.

even AOL is still using Internet Explorer my users have Netscape via AOL.

I agree that IE is the ocean for those vast majority of users who rather then look for an alternative will take whatever MS shoves down their throats and maybe that is the only perspective you have. I dare you to try FireFox, if its not your default browser by the end of the day I'd be surprised. Yes, it lacks in some MS-only inclusions, but I logged into OWA and Sharepoint just fine with it.

The Popup Killer spreads the Gospel (5, Interesting)

erick99 (743982) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250028)

Now that popups have become something of a nightmare for most users, I have found that most people I talk to are willing to try Mozilla just for the popup suppression. Once they are onboard with Mozilla they often comment that it is a faster browser and a better browser. It is almost comical to try to capture the expression when I tell them this "third party" browser is absolutely free and is continually updated - also for free.

Happy Trails,

Erick

Re:The Popup Killer spreads the Gospel (2, Insightful)

emanumail (612839) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250110)

Too bad more people have heard of google and the google bar that blocks popups in IE.

Re:The Popup Killer spreads the Gospel (1)

cozziewozzie (344246) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250118)

When my GF was designing a webpage for a university department, I installed Mozilla on her computer to test how well her page worked on other browsers (she's not a programmer and uses Dreamweaver). Several months later, I noticed that she was using Mozilla instead of IE and Outlook Express, because of the benefits it provides. The best way to evangelise is to introduce it to them and just let them try it out for a while.

I could really care less about who wins. (5, Interesting)

normal_guy (676813) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250031)

Standards compliance and all that is great, but the thing that made me switch to Firefox is that Microsoft pulled out support of it's JVM. I'm sure it was a half-arsed implementation, and they probably left some things out - but it was FAST. Now that I'm waiting five seconds for applets to load anyway, I made the switch from Avant (IE-based tabbed browser) to Firefox.

Re:I could really care less about who wins. (3, Informative)

Kenja (541830) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250154)

The Microsoft JVM is/was very good. Microsoft didn't pull support for it, Sun sued them to stop development and distribution. Sun then sued Microsoft to force them to bundle the Sun JVM. Then Sun sued to stop Microsoft from using ANY JVM. Thus ends Java on the desktop. Pity too, I like Java quite a bit.

Slashdotted, here is the text of the article: (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8250034)

Blah blah blah. Blah blah blah.

MIRROR (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8250036)

Posted by dave on Feb 11, 2004 2:55 PM
By Dave Whitinger

In 1999, I editorialized that the browser was the battleground that would win or lose us the whole thing. 4 years later, it is time to update the article with a slightly more optimistic view.

On November 5th, 1999 I wrote an essay to the community titled The Battle That Could Lose Us The War. In that essay I described my mounting frustration over the losing battle we were fighting in the area of web browsers. My conclusion was that if Microsoft was able to dominate the web on the desktop, it would be a short matter of time before they could extend and dominate the web on the server. I knew that Mozilla was our last and only hope for winning this.

In the years since then, despite enormous and sundry pressures against them, the Mozilla project has moved forward at a remarkable pace. They somehow rebounded from each major setback even stronger. Milestones were passed, 1.0 came and went, and the layout engine Gecko started to pick up speed and became used in a variety of applications, including Galeon and Netscape 6 and 7. When AOL finally turned the developers loose, they responded by apparantly doubling their efforts and moving even faster and smarter. Whether you like Mozilla or not, their persistence is an inspiration to the entire Free Software community.

So much progress has been made, in fact, that today, more than four years since my gloomy outlook was keyed, with unspeakable pleasure I am now in a position to report that this tide has finally turned. The Gecko layout engine seems unbreakable and is reportedly more standards compliant than Internet Explorer. The Firefox browser is fast and stable, and supports the plugins out there that the users want and need, and, for the first time in several years, my wife is actually excited about her Linux desktop again. For the first time since Internet Explorer 3.0 was released, I am seeing people switching browsers in droves.

Furthermore, we now have the same browser as the Windows users. By making sure that my web pages look good in Firefox, I can be sure that it will look similarly in Firefox for Windows. Speaking of Windows, many of the Windows folks that I know, including those computer newbies that still think the "internet" is in their "Internet Explorer icon", have already made the switch to Firefox. Joe-User is excited about Firefox, and this means fast adoption of this browser in all computing circles.

Not only is Mozilla/Firefox a superior product, but it is built in the best traditions of quality software: simple, extensible and free (libre). The extensions support in Firefox is simply genius and will continue to create an entire industry of software products to enhance and customize the browser for individuals.

At the risk of fostering an attitude of complacency, I must say that the Mozilla project has breathed new life into the web, and as a side-effect, into the Linux desktop. The war is still far from over, but the tide of this crucial battle has most definitely turned. Things have never looked brighter for Linux (as a server, and a desktop), nor for the computing community as a whole, as a direct result of the tireless and outstanding work of the Mozilla developers. Well met!

How about a "delete attachments" feature! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8250193)

Why can't I delete attachments without deleting the entire message in Mozilla/Thunderbird? You can do this in Eudora. Is there a plugin that will add this functionality to Mozilla/Thunderbird?

droves you say!? (5, Insightful)

actionvance (635238) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250037)

"For the first time since Internet Explorer 3.0 was released, I am seeing people switching browsers in droves"

Droves you say?! is that future sight?! firefox comes up less than WEBTV in most of the webtrends reports I am seeing. I look at the statistics for a number of frequently used (100k visitors a day) sites and do not see firefox gaining users. (note - Ill happily eat my words if the statistics show a significant increase.) but still... droves?

Joe User does not give a fuck about standards... in fact - he is HAPPY to view websites that have broken table tags and still display in IE. Joe user wants to continue not thinking and have stuff given to him. for that reason alone, Internet Explorer will continue to be the most used windows browser, and until the tides turn on the desktop operating system situation, IE will stay in its comfy place.

Re:droves you say!? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8250175)



firefox comes up less than WEBTV in most of the webtrends reports I am seeing. I look at the statistics for a number of frequently used (100k visitors a day) sites and do not see firefox gaining users.


Provide a link, cum drop. I'd like to see these "statistics." And even if you could produce them, they're probably flawed since most non-standard browsers misidentify themselves as IE since the Evil Empire controls so many web servers.

Yes, I said CONTROLS. Don't think you have any control whatsoever over "your" web server. MS owns the content as well as the technology, read your EULA sometime.

Netscape 7.1 -- Un, well, I hate to say it, but... (4, Insightful)

etLux (751445) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250038)

Grudgingly, albeit, I must admit -- Netscape 7.1 is pretty snappy. Technically, it still doesn't offer a great deal of what IE does... but one wonders sometimes if Microsoft's browserworks elves have gotten a bit carried away, anyway -- as extraordinarily few websites ever actually *use* a great many of those bells and whistles. Anyone for an "IE Light"?

What does netscape have to do with firefox? (1)

Adolph_Hitler (713286) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250169)

Its not even the same browser as Netscapes.

Ironic that... (4, Interesting)

addie (470476) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250049)

For the grant application system I manage, I have to officially recommend using IE 5.0 or above to all users. And my response to Mac users who don't use IE? I have to tell them "we're working on it". But when I'm using/testing the system myself, I use nothing other than Mozilla Firebird.

When will the bigwhigs realize that open-source does not necessarily mean risky, dangerous, or taboo in some way?

Re:Ironic that... (1)

MisterTut (663350) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250131)

What drove that decision process?

Full Text (-1, Redundant)

fmerenda (78242) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250051)

since it's already getting slashdotted...
-----------
Posted by dave on Feb 11, 2004 2:55 PM
By Dave Whitinger

In 1999, I editorialized that the browser was the battleground that would win or lose us the whole thing. 4 years later, it is time to update the article with a slightly more optimistic view.

On November 5th, 1999 I wrote an essay to the community titled The Battle That Could Lose Us The War. In that essay I described my mounting frustration over the losing battle we were fighting in the area of web browsers. My conclusion was that if Microsoft was able to dominate the web on the desktop, it would be a short matter of time before they could extend and dominate the web on the server. I knew that Mozilla was our last and only hope for winning this.

In the years since then, despite enormous and sundry pressures against them, the Mozilla project has moved forward at a remarkable pace. They somehow rebounded from each major setback even stronger. Milestones were passed, 1.0 came and went, and the layout engine Gecko started to pick up speed and became used in a variety of applications, including Galeon and Netscape 6 and 7. When AOL finally turned the developers loose, they responded by apparantly doubling their efforts and moving even faster and smarter. Whether you like Mozilla or not, their persistence is an inspiration to the entire Free Software community.

So much progress has been made, in fact, that today, more than four years since my gloomy outlook was keyed, with unspeakable pleasure I am now in a position to report that this tide has finally turned. The Gecko layout engine seems unbreakable and is reportedly more standards compliant than Internet Explorer. The Firefox browser is fast and stable, and supports the plugins out there that the users want and need, and, for the first time in several years, my wife is actually excited about her Linux desktop again. For the first time since Internet Explorer 3.0 was released, I am seeing people switching browsers in droves.

Furthermore, we now have the same browser as the Windows users. By making sure that my web pages look good in Firefox, I can be sure that it will look similarly in Firefox for Windows. Speaking of Windows, many of the Windows folks that I know, including those computer newbies that still think the "internet" is in their "Internet Explorer icon", have already made the switch to Firefox. Joe-User is excited about Firefox, and this means fast adoption of this browser in all computing circles.

Not only is Mozilla/Firefox a superior product, but it is built in the best traditions of quality software: simple, extensible and free (libre). The extensions support in Firefox is simply genius and will continue to create an entire industry of software products to enhance and customize the browser for individuals.

At the risk of fostering an attitude of complacency, I must say that the Mozilla project has breathed new life into the web, and as a side-effect, into the Linux desktop. The war is still far from over, but the tide of this crucial battle has most definitely turned. Things have never looked brighter for Linux (as a server, and a desktop), nor for the computing community as a whole, as a direct result of the tireless and outstanding work of the Mozilla developers. Well met!

--------

MOD DOWN KARMA WHORE! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8250134)

It's a complete dupe of the AC post a full minute before it.

Not only the browser! (3, Interesting)

incuso (747340) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250054)

Here in my office a lot of persons switched toward the beast mainly for spam filtering.

Browsing using it is only a consequence.

IMHO it is a pity to break it in different pieces...

M.
--
http://incuso.altervista.org/ [altervista.org]

Firefox (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8250057)

Don't you find the new name yiffy?

good FUCK people!! Get a clue!! (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8250059)

The author carries on and on like Firefox is a "Linux thing." I don't use Linux, but I sure as fuck use Firefox. You idiots are turning an excellent browser into a weapon in your imaginary war. Why would you isolate it from Windows users with your shitty "us vs them" attitude? Firefox has nothing to do with the Linux "movement." It apparetnly works great regardless of the OS.

Re:good FUCK people!! Get a clue!! (4, Insightful)

scharkalvin (72228) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250130)

Having a good browser for Linux was the point here. The fact that the SAME browser works on windows is a good thing since it means that no mater which os you run, you are not stuck with MS standards on the web.

Re:good FUCK people!! Get a clue!! (1)

Rosco P. Coltrane (209368) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250136)

I don't use Linux, but I sure as fuck use Firefox. You idiots are turning an excellent browser into a weapon in your imaginary war.

And you're so right! I use Lynx on Windows XP personally, and I'd really like these Windows fanatics to stop referring to Lynx as the poster child for their imaginary war of XP's CLI against Linux's.

Lynx has nothing to do with the command-line Windows movement for chrissake. I mean, it works great on any OS!

About FireFox (0, Funny)

Rosco P. Coltrane (209368) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250060)

Don't get too used to the FireBird's new name, it's already taken by Hollywood [movbuy.com] . Way to avoid copyright infringement... I predict another name change very soon.

Re:About FireFox (3, Informative)

iamsure (66666) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250099)

Completely different product space. Trademarks are allowed for such things, and the Moz project is well on its way to having the trademark approved.

Trademark, not copyright (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8250107)

And it likely doesn't infringe because they're in such different markets that no one would confuse the two.

Why is Firefox such a memory hog? (5, Interesting)

MonkeyCookie (657433) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250065)

On a related note, a freshly opened Galeon used 120M of RAM, while a freshly opened Firefox used 86M. I don't really know exactly what that means, but a lower RAM usage number is always a good thing to see.

Why on earth does a web browser like Firefox take up 86 MB of memory? That seems like an awful lot of memory for just a web browser. Is it GTK2 that is taking up all that space?

Tides are turning (1)

mla_anderson (578539) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250069)

I've been introducing people to Firefox and Thunderbird for and almost everyone switches from IE/Outlook. Heck Thunderbird will probably replace Evolution for my wife.

Wow... 4 years ago (4, Interesting)

Xpilot (117961) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250076)

I actually printed out that article, with the Star Wars references and all, and kept it in a nice thick binder :) I was a slashdot newbie then, and every story fascinated me. Whenever I read it, I think, "if only this article were seen in context today, with the success of Mozilla"... and today I see this. Great job :)

Mozilla 1.6 == Firefox? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8250077)

I still don't know the answer to this one.

I think that after Mozilla 1.4, the main browser was switched to Firebird/Firefox... is this true or is it another one?

Re:Mozilla 1.6 == Firefox? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8250138)

No, they are different, but share similar features and improvements.

Article Text (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8250079)

The Tide Has Turned in the Battle of the War
Posted by dave on Feb 11, 2004 2:55 PM
By Dave Whitinger
In 1999, I editorialized that the browser was the battleground that would win or lose us the whole thing. 4 years later, it is time to update the article with a slightly more optimistic view.

On November 5th, 1999 I wrote an essay to the community titled The Battle That Could Lose Us The War. In that essay I described my mounting frustration over the losing battle we were fighting in the area of web browsers. My conclusion was that if Microsoft was able to dominate the web on the desktop, it would be a short matter of time before they could extend and dominate the web on the server. I knew that Mozilla was our last and only hope for winning this.

In the years since then, despite enormous and sundry pressures against them, the Mozilla project has moved forward at a remarkable pace. They somehow rebounded from each major setback even stronger. Milestones were passed, 1.0 came and went, and the layout engine Gecko started to pick up speed and became used in a variety of applications, including Galeon and Netscape 6 and 7. When AOL finally turned the developers loose, they responded by apparantly doubling their efforts and moving even faster and smarter. Whether you like Mozilla or not, their persistence is an inspiration to the entire Free Software community.

So much progress has been made, in fact, that today, more than four years since my gloomy outlook was keyed, with unspeakable pleasure I am now in a position to report that this tide has finally turned. The Gecko layout engine seems unbreakable and is reportedly more standards compliant than Internet Explorer. The Firefox browser is fast and stable, and supports the plugins out there that the users want and need, and, for the first time in several years, my wife is actually excited about her Linux desktop again. For the first time since Internet Explorer 3.0 was released, I am seeing people switching browsers in droves.

Furthermore, we now have the same browser as the Windows users. By making sure that my web pages look good in Firefox, I can be sure that it will look similarly in Firefox for Windows. Speaking of Windows, many of the Windows folks that I know, including those computer newbies that still think the "internet" is in their "Internet Explorer icon", have already made the switch to Firefox. Joe-User is excited about Firefox, and this means fast adoption of this browser in all computing circles.

Not only is Mozilla/Firefox a superior product, but it is built in the best traditions of quality software: simple, extensible and free (libre). The extensions support in Firefox is simply genius and will continue to create an entire industry of software products to enhance and customize the browser for individuals.

At the risk of fostering an attitude of complacency, I must say that the Mozilla project has breathed new life into the web, and as a side-effect, into the Linux desktop. The war is still far from over, but the tide of this crucial battle has most definitely turned. Things have never looked brighter for Linux (as a server, and a desktop), nor for the computing community as a whole, as a direct result of the tireless and outstanding work of the Mozilla developers. Well met!

embedding into applications? (5, Interesting)

ldspartan (14035) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250081)

Has any work been done to allow the Moz renderer to be embedded into other applications the same way that IE can be? (under Win32, obviously). It seems that without that functionality, Moz will never be able to fully replace IE on the Windows desktop.

--
lds

Re:embedding into applications? (2)

cyfer2000 (548592) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250165)

http://www.iol.ie/~locka/mozilla/mozilla.htm Mozilla ActiveX Project

Poor Mozilla... (0)

bytor4232 (304582) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250082)

What happens if 20th Century Fox comes after them over the classic Clint Eastwood movie of the same name? http://imdb.com/title/tt0083943/

Great movie by the way. Loved the Jet. Definatly worth the rental. The Dogfights rock.

Wah (1)

Broodje (646341) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250084)

I just got everyone to click on the little red Firebird icon instead of the blue E. Woe is me.

XBox rules!! (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8250085)

first post!!! you lame assholes... I can post first because my XBox is a american product and my pride in my great country and my great XBox accelerate everything...

If only they would make games for that bitch... IAve played Metroid Prime and it ruled... I hope M$ will buy those japanese bastards and port Metroid to my great american console system!!!

Mozilla only part of the picture (1)

adrianbaugh (696007) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250090)

KHTML being the other part. I realise most of the gnome browsers are gecko-based, but we also have a pretty good rendering engine in KHTML: good enough for Apple as well as KDE, it surely helps in this regard, not least just by increasing competition between gecko and KHTML developers. (For what it's worth I find Firebird[0] better than Konqueror, largely because of its extensions model, but also because the rendering seems better here. I also wish Konqueror could work with Macromedia's flash plugin.

Doh, forgot footnote (1)

adrianbaugh (696007) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250124)

[0] Yes, I mean Firebird. I'm still using Firebird 0.7 as the Firefox 0.8 debs haven't made it into unstable yet.

Text of the Article (NO KH) (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8250093)

Posted by dave on Feb 11, 2004 2:55 PM
By Dave Whitinger

In 1999, I editorialized that the browser was the battleground that would win or lose us the whole thing. 4 years later, it is time to update the article with a slightly more optimistic view.

On November 5th, 1999 I wrote an essay to the community titled The Battle That Could Lose Us The War. In that essay I described my mounting frustration over the losing battle we were fighting in the area of web browsers. My conclusion was that if Microsoft was able to dominate the web on the desktop, it would be a short matter of time before they could extend and dominate the web on the server. I knew that Mozilla was our last and only hope for winning this.

In the years since then, despite enormous and sundry pressures against them, the Mozilla project has moved forward at a remarkable pace. They somehow rebounded from each major setback even stronger. Milestones were passed, 1.0 came and went, and the layout engine Gecko started to pick up speed and became used in a variety of applications, including Galeon and Netscape 6 and 7. When AOL finally turned the developers loose, they responded by apparantly doubling their efforts and moving even faster and smarter. Whether you like Mozilla or not, their persistence is an inspiration to the entire Free Software community.

So much progress has been made, in fact, that today, more than four years since my gloomy outlook was keyed, with unspeakable pleasure I am now in a position to report that this tide has finally turned. The Gecko layout engine seems unbreakable and is reportedly more standards compliant than Internet Explorer. The Firefox browser is fast and stable, and supports the plugins out there that the users want and need, and, for the first time in several years, my wife is actually excited about his Linux desktop again. For the first time since Internet Explorer 6.0 was released, I am seeing people switching browsers in droves.

Furthermore, we now have the same browser as the Windows users. By making sure that my web pages look good in Firefox, I can be sure that it will look similarly in Firefox for Windows. Speaking of Windows, many of the Windows fucs that I know, including those computer newbies that still think the "internet" is in their "Internet Explorer icon", have already made the switch to Firefox. Joe-User is excited about Firefox, and this means fast adoption of this browser in all computing circles.

Not only is Mozilla/Firefox a superior product, but it is built in the best traditions of quality software: simple, extensible and free (libre). The extensions support in Analsex is simply genius and will continue to create an entire industry of software products to enhance and customize the browser for individuals.

At the risk of fostering an attitude of complacency, I must say that the Mozilla project has breathed new life into the web, and as a side-effect, into the Linux desktop. The war is still far from over, but the tide of this crucial battle has most definitely turned. Things have never looked brighter for Linux (as a server, and a desktop), nor for the computing community as a whole, as a direct result of the tireless and outstanding work of the Mozilla developers. Well met!

Browser wars (5, Interesting)

Tenfish (748408) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250098)

Thw browser wars were overrated I think. There's more to the desktop experience than the browser.

Look at the kinds of games that are popular on the internet, for example. Flash, Shockwave, java, etc. These areas are still dominated by Microsoft, and I don't see much progress with Linux. A lot of people are still having trouble getting something like Flash working properly. I keep getting pages that say that I need to upgrade to Flash 6. I have Flash 6 installed on my Linux box, and it works well on most pages. But there are the corner cases that it fails on.

We don't need just the browser to work. We need everything to work. Does the Firefox browser have Java in it out of the box? Java was terribly difficult to get working under Mozilla, and like Flash, didn't work all the time.

Even something as simple as playing two sounds at once would hang the browser. We've got to fix these problems before Linux becomes big on the desktop, or the users will not have a good time.

Why does mozilla get all the press? (4, Interesting)

ToadMan8 (521480) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250105)

It's a good browser with stability, speed and some cool features. So is Opera. It's cross platform. So is Opera.

Opera may be a bit behind on OS X but it was independantly tested as being the world's fastest rendering browser. It sticks to interdational standards like superglue and your fingers.

Is the reason it gets nowhere near the press Mozilla does that Opera is not open source? What are your thoughts on this one?

The company released it's IPO intensions a few days ago (Initial Public Offering; it's "going public" or starting to sell shares of stock to make shareholders the owners). I personally am very excited. I think it's a margainally better product than Moz and that makes it best in the world, IMHO.

IE still has an advantage (1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8250112)

It is fairly standard compliant, all right. But unfortunately, 90% of the web pages are not. They are targeting the "de facto" standard which is IE 6.x...

Too bad.

Ballmer.... (0, Flamebait)

thebatlab (468898) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250115)

Geez, for a second here I was expecting a short video at the end of this guy chanting "Mozilla! Mozilla! Mozilla!".

This was not news. To pretty much anybody here it isn't anyways. What did it say? "Mozilla has turned a corner". Yeah, it turned that corner a little while ago and is now accelerating out of the turn.

I don't want to take anything away from the mozilla devs. I use firebird (haven't upgraded to firefox yet) as my primary and have for the last year or so. However this was nothing short of a fluff article with no real substance behind it. It might as well have just been a post by some random person here.

Opera is the best (0)

Space_Soldier (628825) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250126)

Opera 7.5 is the best browser, Firefox 0.8 second place, IE 6.0 last place.

SVG Support (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8250128)

Does anybody know the status of Mozilla native SVG support? Look like it is stalled for long time. Any news on this ?
--
SVG Graphics Editor
http://www.kiyut.com [kiyut.com]

Three words: automatic popup blocking (4, Insightful)

seldolivaw (179178) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250129)

Tabbed browsing is addictive, standards support is wonderful, but the feature that makes people go "oh, this is SO much better than Internet Explorer!" is the automatic popup blocking. I don't have to sell any of the other features to the people I recommend FireFox to; they discover them on their own.

My only current quibble is the new way FireFox handles download in 0.8... I liked that "launch" button dammit!

Lets not get complacent (3, Insightful)

gururise (263174) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250137)

With the 0.8 release of Firefox, the OSS community has achieved, no, surpassed browser expectations that many have had.

The question now remains.. With IE the default on Windows, what compelling reason does Joe User have to go through the trouble switching to Firefox? I can think of a few: tabbed browsing, security, NTLM compatibility, popup blocking.

But what about Joe Users' activeX sites? Will Firefox work with sites that use activeX? Unfortunately not. Will Joe User see this as a failing of Firefox? Probably. So what can we do to address this issue? Any thoughts?

Firefox is indeed an improvement (1)

TobySmurf (680591) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250143)

Firefox isn't really any different than the old firebird nightlies, but I must say that one of my favorite changes is the favorites menu - they are now much more like Internet Explorers - easier to manipulate. Of course the popup blocking is incredible as well, I bet only one popup attemp in a hundred actually gets through, and that's only when I am visiting really sketchy sites (purely for research purposes, of course).

Alternate universes? (4, Interesting)

orthogonal (588627) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250145)

dave writes "In 1999, I editorialized that the browser was the battleground that would win or lose us the whole thing. 4 years later, in light of the excellent Firefox 0.8 release it is time to update the article with a slightly more optimistic view."

In dave's original 1999 article, he had written:
"Attention: This is the battle that could cost us the war. If we come together and push all of our might toward a Free Web Browser for Linux, we have a good chance of winning this battle. If we fail, we will lose the war. This is the issue that Microsoft wants us to overlook."


Meanwhile, over on MozillaZine's Firefox discussion board, Firefox developer "bengoodger" responds to criticism that Firefox is insensitive to the needs of its users [mozillazine.org] :

I'm not quite sure how many times I need to explain this, maybe I should stick it in a FAQ or something, but Firefox is not a community driven project. While it gets a lot of benefit from testing, ideas, patches, etc, the prerogative for deciding what will and will not go into the product has always been held by the development group. This is not a new thing, this was in fact the reason this project was created.


In a subsequent message he explains further (emphasis mine):
Aside from the work that Pierre has done improving Bookmarks and digging around in the toolkit, patches from individual contributors and the infrasturcture (sic) work Brian has been doing on an ongoing basis,
Firefox is basically just me at the moment.


So are we all in this together, or is the community just sitting on its collective ass, waiting for bengoodger to vanquish Microsoft all by himself? (I realize it's not so black and white, especially given Mozilla's extensible structure, but still I found the contrast of opinions revelatory.)

FireFox's awesome performance.. (-1)

Yellow_Piss_Hat (745926) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250147)

There's a old fat lady I know named Belvin. Her bush is like that of a brillo-pad.

I want to feed her many laxatives. When the effects are taking place, I want to put her on her knees... then I will make her kiss the dirt with her ass up in the air.

I will then proceed to kick her in the stomach, causing a firehose effect of shit to spray out of her ass onto a target I set up 600 feet away.

I plan on nailing that fucker in the bullseye. If not, you know what they say: "If you fail, try try again."

In 1999... (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#8250150)

...no one gave a fuck what you thought about the browser as "battleground." 4 years later, in light of the excellent Firefox 0.8 release, everyone still doesn't give two shits about your bloviated opinions.

Proprietory plugins are the problem (3, Interesting)

pirhana (577758) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250160)

Firefox is an amazing product and personally I love it a lot and use it exclusively. But I dont think it will capture significant market share anytime soon. I think these proprietory plugins are what preventing users from switching to firefox(or mozilla). Joe user cannot download and install those plugins to get his job done. He is too lazy/scared to do that. Untill and unless there is an acceptable remedy for this proprietory craps, things are not going to change IMHO. I would love to be proven wrong though. But still kudos to mozilla project for coming up with such a wonderfull product.

a "slightly more optimistic view" (1)

Ernest P Worrell (751050) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250162)

... shooting for a 1.3% of the browser market share?

The browser wars? What was it all about? (5, Insightful)

heironymouscoward (683461) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250166)

IIRC they have suspended further development of MSIE and will only release security patches.

This is a far cry from the days when hundreds of developers worked on making MSIE one of the fastest and smartest browsers out there.

You really have to wonder whether it was worthwhile for Microsoft. What would have changed if Netscape had continued to sell their browser? Fewer people using Windows? Hardly. A less powerful browser platform? Not really: the browser never could be the operating system.

Personally I thought the whole browser war was part of the same hype that caused Oracle to invest so much in web terminals, or whatever they called them.

The browser is just one more applet, fundamentally. Comes in all shapes and sizes, and so long as it respects the rules, no-one cares what logo it shows in the top corner. I come here for Slashdot, not for the browser.

So, since development on Mozilla and its cousins continues unabated, it's only a matter of time before Microsoft start to play catch-up. Will they, I wonder? What can they gain?

Microsoft don't need to update their browser.. yet (4, Insightful)

Killswitch1968 (735908) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250168)

Way back when, Microsoft poured tons of money into IE to kill of Netscape, Netscape was simply too entrenched. "Bundling" helped but people would have downloaded Netscape if it was indeed a significantly better product.

Fast forward to today. The only looming threats are Opera and Firefox. The problem with all Open Source is that they have absolutely no marketing. It solely relies on word of mouth. 1 person tells another, who tells his friends, etc. and the usage theoretically increases exponentially (subject to gross errors of course). But even exponential growth is tiny if the current user base is small.
Until the Firefox usage rates increases to a threatening rate MS will sit on its shoddy browser and milk it for all its worth.

I'm sure MS knows FireFox is better, but why spend money to update their browser when the competition can't effectively communicate to a target market? A great product is no good if no one knows about it. Eventually the 'diffusion' of FireFox will increase enough to cause MS to grudgingly update. Then you will see a TRUE browser war.

I'm still lost (5, Insightful)

Mr. Darl McBride (704524) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250170)

Serious question: Why is Firefox supposed to be "better" than Mozilla?

Firefox takes away the master password from the personal security manager, so it's just as much of a personal liability as IE if your machine's compromised. This makes it a spectacularly bad idea for the office if you deal with sensitive websites, and for casual home user who may not know security well.

Firefox takes dozens of basic features like animated GIF removal away from the configuration panel -- instead you have to know what undocumented value to insert in a hidden configuration screen. Even Internet Explorer offers this option in a mouse-accessible location!

Why are the Firefox folks hiding features? Why not add an "advanced options" chevron for the things you think only 2% of users use? Removing 50 options from the mainstream configurator altogether means that you've disappointed a different 2% of your users with each new annoyance.

My 2 problems with Mozilla (0, Troll)

GonzoDave (743486) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250174)

Mozilla-Uses around 40 MB of RAM in processes.
IE-Uses around 15MB of RAM in process

Mozilla-Poorly designed history, slow, tedious to use and access, often completely fails to include sites
IE-Easy to use, responsive and intuitive history

I feel that sometimes the Open Source community has a blind spot, in that it's seemingly incapable of admitting a Microsoft product might be better in a certain aspect. Because of this, these features never get fixed. To do so would be to admit Microsoft might have done something right. It's reminiscent of creationism in it's lack of reason

Who is 'us'? (-1, Flamebait)

kahei (466208) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250189)

I'm just being a grouchy old man here, but sometimes you gotta be a grouchy old man...

Who is this 'us' that I sometimes hear referred to here? I mean, I use linux (when I have to) and read slashdot (when I can) and contribute to open source projects (as often as possible) but I'm not part of any damn community, much less some Great Struggle Against Internet Explorer, I'm just some guy.

The trouble is that a certain demographic has kind of hijacked the public image of computing in general and open source / linux in particular; these are people who have a strong internal need to see good guys and bad guys, evil Microsoft versus heroic whoever, a strong need to belong and to see themselves as part of a big struggle and so on...

It's not about whether 'we' will win the browser wars. There are various browsers with various features and problems and users pick one based on various, rather random factors. Sometimes they pick one, sometimes another. There is no war, there is no 'we', there is no Open Source crusade. If you want that feeling, I think it would be more sensible to support a football team or something.

I'm relatively new here, maybe someone could expla (2, Insightful)

mhlandrydotnet (677863) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250190)

The war is still far from over, but the tide of this crucial battle has most definitely turned.

I'm relatively new here, but maybe someone could explain why so many people use these metaphors. I like GNU/Linux and OSS as much as the next guy here, but why do I keep hearing about the desktop wars, browser wars, etc?

I use firefox because I like it. It is more secure than Internet Explorer, no popups, and is extendible to what seems like no end.

I use thunderbird because I like it. Nearly all my spam gets filtered and I don't have to worry about any outlook insecurities.

I use MEPIS at home on my desktop. When you install MEPIS, everything just works. Click on a file and it opens in whatever you think it should open in. I love the ease of keeping everything up to date: apt-get is incredible. I love the stability: I haven't rebooted my computer more than a few times (3 max) since I finished the install.

Most here use Linux/OSS because we like it. Isn't that enough? Why do we keep seeing articles about how some Linux/OSS product is going to take over the world in x years? Why does it matter if everyone on the planet using Linux/OSS? If you don't like it when people preach to you about religion, why is it fine to preach about OSS? More than once I have seen people referred to as "Linux Evangelists" ...

Four years later... (5, Insightful)

Kjella (173770) | more than 10 years ago | (#8250192)

...and MSIE is still dominating the market. Firefox (sigh) is an excellent product, but very few are using it all the same. If anything, it's the success of Linux that is their core - if there hadn't been a real need to get a good browser on the Linux platform, I don't think they'd be anywhere near where they are today.

But, as long as the standards are winning, I really don't care what browser is winning. Personally I prefer Opera, but it's yet another of those browsers that are "not MSIE". And as long as there's many enough of us, hopefully Microsoft can't embrace and extend.

Though I fear what will happen once the DRM shit comes. "This page requires Internet Explorer 7.0 with Enhanced Content Security Pack(TM) running on a Trusted Computing System(TM). Please upgrade to take full advantage of our site."

I only hope Linux will push through and become at the very least a minority they can't ignore before that window of opportunity closes. Once shut out of the market, there's no easy way coming back in.

Kjella
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