Beta
×

Welcome to the Slashdot Beta site -- learn more here. Use the link in the footer or click here to return to the Classic version of Slashdot.

Thank you!

Before you choose to head back to the Classic look of the site, we'd appreciate it if you share your thoughts on the Beta; your feedback is what drives our ongoing development.

Beta is different and we value you taking the time to try it out. Please take a look at the changes we've made in Beta and  learn more about it. Thanks for reading, and for making the site better!

Kodak vs. Sun Java Trial Date Set

Hemos posted more than 10 years ago | from the stone-in-the-shoe dept.

Java 152

sirshannon writes "CNET News.com.com.com.com is reporting that the Kodak vs. Sun trial date has been set for September 15. Kodak claims that Java infringes on 3 patents they hold and have been trying to "resolve" the issue for 4 years or so. More info here."

Sorry! There are no comments related to the filter you selected.

Shit hits the fan... (-1, Redundant)

cyb97 (520582) | more than 10 years ago | (#9093628)

This case is a perfect example of why software patents is a bad thing!

There's simply nothing else to say about this case.

Suing for Dollars (1)

mfh (56) | more than 10 years ago | (#9093631)

This has nothing whatsoever to do with Microsoft paying Sun $2bil [slashdot.org] .

Well... (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9093633)

I hate to say this, but my vote is for Kodak.

Actually, er, I don't hate to say that. Down with Sun.

Re:Well... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9094092)

I love how you slashbots sit there and demand commercial products are open sourced, and when a company actually does it, you 'forget' about it, and demand even more open source software from them while constantly slagging them off at the same time.

Great. (1)

DiscordOfFive (778099) | more than 10 years ago | (#9093635)

The litigation wars continue. I'm just curious as to how Kodak decided that litigation against sun was a good idea.

Re:Great. (4, Insightful)

saden1 (581102) | more than 10 years ago | (#9093737)

Everyone probably knows that Kodak was falling off but it has just reach a new low. Looking at the patents they claim they own you'll note that every program every written that makes use of an object manager is infringing on their patent. This patent is totally unenforceable. And I can honestly say with confidence that there is definitely prior art out there.

Kodak is sinking and needs management change.

Re:Great. (2, Funny)

serano (544693) | more than 10 years ago | (#9093790)

Kodak is sinking and needs management change.

Since they are adopting the SCO business model, they might consider Darl. I hear he might be on the market soon.

Re:Great. (2, Informative)

nomadic (141991) | more than 10 years ago | (#9094044)

Alright, these kinds of posts come up in every lawsuit story, and I just don't understand why. Company X sues someone, and instantly people make these grand announcements about how X is falling and relying on the patents in a last ditch effort to remain afloat.

Kodak is doing fine. They're a very, very big company. They are quite profitable.

Too bad we don't have some sort of vast network of worldwide computer systems over which one can quickly access such information.

I'm not defending their actions here, of course. The patents look pretty sketchy, but then again I've only read the abstracts. Maybe in the main body they elaborate something new, so I'll refrain from judgment.

Re:Great. (1)

Compenguin (175952) | more than 10 years ago | (#9094378)

KODAK is doing awful though. Just look at tehir 5 year stock chart. I live in Rochester, NY and there is a news story every month or so about what a mess Kodak is.

Re:Great. (1)

nomadic (141991) | more than 10 years ago | (#9094506)

Just about everyone's stock chart looks bad when you start it during the boom and end it now. They've recently made a big push away from chemical film to digital, and it appears to be paying off. My point was this isn't some last ditch effort to save the company. Even without the lawsuit they have a viable business going.

Re:Great. (3, Informative)

allyourbasebelongtou (765748) | more than 10 years ago | (#9094098)

While Kodak was slugging it out with Fuji, Ilford, and Agfa across the globe for the traditional film business, all kinds of new competititive threats like HP (a company no one would have called a Kodak competitor 10 years ago) have sprung up and made mincemeat out of what should have been a natural for Kodak: transitioning people and themselves to digital.

Alas, someone was asleep at the switch, oodles of people have lost their jobs, and Kodak, a name almost synonymous with quality photography, will likely be sliced into a much smaller company just to stay afloat. What a shame.

Its only hope is that Hollywood continues using traditional film for feature films forever. Oh, wait, that's not gonna happen, either. Scratch that.

Ah yes, Wang! Software! We have a way out! Let's get people to pay us for our patents! Nice try.

I have to give them praise for trying to work out something with Sun amicably (however zany the claim may seem to us now) without pushing the big red LAWSUIT button long ago, but it does quite seem to be an attempt to make an end run for the cash.

My only advice to Kodak: get HP to buy you. (You heard it here first.)

Re:Great. (2, Interesting)

dnoyeb (547705) | more than 10 years ago | (#9093952)

Just reading the first patent (5,206,951) it would appear that Kodak has a patent on Object Oriented software.

The patent is sufficiently vague as to encompass so many things it probably covers RMI as well.

But shouldn't a vague patent make it easier to find prior art?

patent 5,421,012 seems unrelated, unless their trying to tie it in to J2EE application servers in some weird fashion.

5,226,161 is just gettings stupid. Patenting "object managers" in any way shape or form is stupid.

They are simply patenting object oriented elements of software. They can not succeed with this vague strategy for a few reasons. One, they do not have enough money to take on the whole software world. Two, their patents are so close to OOD that their must be tons of prior art.

Re:Great. (1)

nomadic (141991) | more than 10 years ago | (#9094067)

Wait a minute, did you read the patents or did you read the abstracts of the patents? There's a difference.

Editting Correction (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9093652)

"CNET News.com.com.com.com is...

FYI, the site is news.com.com. You have 2 extra .coms there. I don't know why it's so hard to remember what their name is.

I hope you correct this error. It looks very unproffessional.

Re:Editting Correction (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9093691)

edditing -> editing
unproffesional -> unprofessional

What was that you were saying?

Kodak v. Sun (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9093653)

Must be a case of overexposure.

Re:Kodak v. Sun (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9093685)

Must be a case of overexposure. So what you're saying is that Kodak is suing Sun because they forgot to use Flash... Oh shit. Macromedia's gonna get in on this too...

Re:Kodak v. Sun (1)

name773 (696972) | more than 10 years ago | (#9093873)

forgot to use Flash
overexposure means too much light

Java! (3, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9093655)

The term Java can refer to:

* Java (island) - the main island of Indonesia
* Java, Georgia - one of provinces of the Republic of Georgia
* Java coffee - a variety of coffee plant which originated on the island
* Java programming language - named after the coffee
* JavaScript - A Java-like scripting language used in web pages.
* Javanese language
* Java (board game)
* Java (chicken) - a breed of chicken

Re:Java! (1)

taara (687286) | more than 10 years ago | (#9093798)

Java can also refer to SOL - a kind of shell interface licensed under GNU and running on Hewlett Packard HP48G calculators. It is not made by HP.
It seems to me that one patent is talking about object oriented programming. So Kodak may fish for money all ower the woeld now?

Re:Java! (1)

LPetrazickis (557952) | more than 10 years ago | (#9094328)

Also, Java refers to the east meeting room in my old company. There is also a Borneo meeting room.^-^

Re:Java! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9094334)

JavaScript - A Java-like scripting language used in web pages.

Well... except that it's totally different from Java, of course. Totally different non-class-based object system, dynamic typing, interpreted directly rather than compiled to bytecode. Basically the only similarity is the way it uses the usual C-derived {}; syntax.

I hate marketing.

Vague fluffy patents. (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9093659)

Like most of the patents that companies sue other companies over, these are particularly vague and empty. I'm surprised there isn't prior art on all of these.

This is so sad... (5, Interesting)

phunster (701222) | more than 10 years ago | (#9093667)

These are two companies on the ropes. One of them has decided that litigation is a viable survival strategy. Say what you will about either of these companies, this litigation is not a good thing for either of them.

Re:This is so sad... (1)

foidulus (743482) | more than 10 years ago | (#9093722)

Litigation seems to be a viable strategy for Sun too. What goes around comes around in the crazy patent game I guess.

Re:This is so sad... (5, Interesting)

njcoder (657816) | more than 10 years ago | (#9093840)

Just wonder why you say this. The other day I was just curious about Sun's lawsuits and did a few searches. The majority of any Sun info I found were related to their Microsoft trials. Those were all contract and anti trust trials. Not patent trials. I don't think it was bad of sun to spend the time and money to help label MS as a monopoly and point out their anti-competitive practices. They've put a lot of companies out of business and it's good that Sun stood up to them. It's a shame people never recognized that what Sun was fighting for benefitted many independant software companies, not just sun. Maybe if they received that kind of support they never would have settled.

If it is the MS trials you are reffering too, you obviously have your head shoved up way to far up your MCSE ass.

There were some trademark related ones, or threats of, over Java. They were just enforcing the fact that people can't call something Java or 100% Java compatible unless it's been tested as such. This is a good thing for the developer community that needs to rely on the claims of something being 100% pure java.

The only one I found regarding patents was related to Kingston which Sun later dropped. A stupid decision to start the suit in my opinion.

You want to talk about big patent lawsuits you're looking at the wrong tech company identified by three letters. Even MS is taking big blue's cue and building a patent portfolio to start raising revenue.

Read this interesting bit on how IBM tried to bully Sun out of $10 million in it's early days." [forbes.com]

My own introduction to the realities of the patent system came in the 1980s, when my client, Sun Microsystems--then a small company--was accused by IBM of patent infringement. Threatening a massive lawsuit, IBM demanded a meeting to present its claims. Fourteen IBM lawyers and their assistants, all clad in the requisite dark blue suits, crowded into the largest conference room Sun had.

The chief blue suit orchestrated the presentation of the seven patents IBM claimed were infringed, the most prominent of which was IBM's notorious "fat lines" patent: To turn a thin line on a computer screen into a broad line, you go up and down an equal distance from the ends of the thin line and then connect the four points. You probably learned this technique for turning a line into a rectangle in seventh-grade geometry, and, doubtless, you believe it was devised by Euclid or some such 3,000-year-old thinker. Not according to the examiners of the USPTO, who awarded IBM a patent on the process.

After IBM's presentation, our turn came. As the Big Blue crew looked on (without a flicker of emotion), my colleagues--all of whom had both engineering and law degrees--took to the whiteboard with markers, methodically illustrating, dissecting, and demolishing IBM's claims. We used phrases like: "You must be kidding," and "You ought to be ashamed." But the IBM team showed no emotion, save outright indifference. Confidently, we proclaimed our conclusion: Only one of the seven IBM patents would be deemed valid by a court, and no rational court would find that Sun's technology infringed even that one.

An awkward silence ensued. The blue suits did not even confer among themselves. They just sat there, stonelike. Finally, the chief suit responded. "OK," he said, "maybe you don't infringe these seven patents. But we have 10,000 U.S. patents. Do you really want us to go back to Armonk [IBM headquarters in New York] and find seven patents you do infringe? Or do you want to make this easy and just pay us $20 million?" After a modest bit of negotiation, Sun cut IBM a check, and the blue suits went to the next company on their hit list.

In corporate America, this type of shakedown is repeated weekly. The patent as stimulant to invention has long since given way to the patent as blunt instrument for establishing an innovation stranglehold.

Gary Reback

Re:This is so sad... (1)

foidulus (743482) | more than 10 years ago | (#9093903)

I am not an MSCE, I don't use any Microsoft OS's, and I love Java. What I was pointing out was that Sun is having major financial problems(read the parent) and if it were not for that suit and a good cash injection from Microsoft they would be having more...

Re:This is so sad... (1)

njcoder (657816) | more than 10 years ago | (#9094468)

"I am not an MSCE, I don't use any Microsoft OS's, and I love Java. What I was pointing out was that Sun is having major financial problems(read the parent) and if it were not for that suit and a good cash injection from Microsoft they would be having more..."
Actually... what you said was
"Litigation seems to be a viable strategy for Sun too. What goes around comes around in the crazy patent game I guess."
Litigation wasn't a "viable strategy" for Sun. It was a last resort. Sun tried to get MS to conform to the spec before taking any legal action. I'm sure Sun would have rather had MS conform to the spec than have to go through this long trial. Java would have been much better off without it.

From http://www.post369.columbus.oh.us/ExpNews.d/1997.d /971028.ExpNews.html [columbus.oh.us]

"Sun's first responsibility as stewards of the Java technology is to preserve the significant investments that Sun and hundreds of companies have made. We are required to take this action on behalf of our licensees, the Java industry and Sun's shareholders," said Alan Baratz, president of Sun's JavaSoft division. Baratz added that for the past six months and up until 6 p.m. Sunday, September 28, Sun worked diligently with Microsoft in hopes of convincing them to abide by their agreements.
You also sait "what goes around comes around". Which makes it sound like Sun deserves this and is a result of the MS case or that the two are even legally or morally the same.

I don't see how your follow up comment explains your first comment in the way you think it does.

Re:This is so sad... (1)

Courageous (228506) | more than 10 years ago | (#9094177)

"OK," he said, "maybe you don't infringe these seven patents. But we have 10,000 U.S. patents. Do you really want us to go back to Armonk and find seven patents you do infringe? Or do you want to make this easy and just pay us $20 million?"

That's extortion. It's a felony that can and will get you many years in prison.

C//

Re:This is so sad... (1)

njcoder (657816) | more than 10 years ago | (#9094267)

"That's extortion. It's a felony that can and will get you many years in prison."

Can, yes. Will, apparently not. IBM did a lot of this and I never heard of any IBM lawyer going to prison over this.

Re:This is so sad... (1)

slashdot_commentator (444053) | more than 10 years ago | (#9094279)


So is misrepresenting the WMD threat Iraq posed pre-invasion.

Do you think GWB is seriously concerned about impeachment?

Re:This is so sad... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9094495)

Thanks for being relevant and on-topic, fuck-stick.

Re:This is so sad... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9094346)

> That's extortion. It's a felony that can and will get you many years in prison.

Don't give Darl any more ideas.

domino theory (1)

moviepig.com (745183) | more than 10 years ago | (#9093808)

One of [Sun or Kodak] has decided that litigation is a viable survival strategy.

...or both.

Each has a name much larger than its likely litigation-defense resources. If the patents are as broad as claimed, a good first step towards exploiting them might be a death-match with a highly visible opponent.

Re:This is so sad... (4, Interesting)

Zocalo (252965) | more than 10 years ago | (#9093820)

Kodak's not just on the ropes - it's practically on the floor having seriously missed the digital photography boat after PhotoCD went nowhere. This isn't the only patent case that Kodak is involved in at the moment either. There is an ongoing spat with Sony over patent violations as well where both companies have issued suits against the other about infringements pertaining to digital cameras and related technologies. In addition Kodak has been named as one of 31 defendents in a case over the use of a JPEG related patent that Forgent claims to own.

As usual, I'm betting on the lawyers being the only winners while the companies themselves suffer death by a thousand paper cuts from all of the legal documents...

All about Goatse.cx (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9093669)

Goatse.cx

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

[edit]
Warning: Some links and content may be offensive to some readers.

Goatse.cx is one of the most widely known Internet shock sites. Its front page contains an explicit picture, hello.jpg, featuring a man wearing a gold ring on his left hand (and nothing else) manually stretching his anus and rectum to a diameter roughly equal to the width of his hand. Below the anus is the man's erect penis. The site is commonly linked to by Internet trolls in order to shock unsuspecting users with the image.

As of January 16, 2004 the domain Goatse.cx is no longer online, however many mirrors of the site are still available (see the alternative locations section) and the image itself has been posted at many other web sites.

Table of contents [showhide]
1 Etymology
2 Identity of the "Goatse Man"
3 History
4 Alternative Locations
5 Organization
6 Geographic Location
7 Parodies and Tributes
8 External Links

[edit]
Etymology

The intended meaning of the site's name is not known for certain. It is commonly interpreted as a word play on the phrase "goat sex", although no goats are involved anywhere on the site. An entry on Urbandictionary.com proposes the acronym "Guy Opens Ass To Show Everyone", but this seems likely to be a backronym.

[edit]
Identity of the "Goatse Man"

Despite widespread speculation, the identity of the man featured in hello.jpg is not definitely known. All that is known for certain is that the picture belongs to a series featuring the man demonstrating his anal stretching ability, probably created for pornographic purposes. Some have claimed that "he" is actually a hermaphrodite, and he is actually pulling open his vagina. The developer of this theory later admitted that the theory was false.

According to some sources the man is an Italian who has been practicing anal stretching for years as a hobby. Others contend he is one Yam Sthruss, based on an email in the Feedback section from a person with this name claiming that hello.jpg is of him and asking for its removal.

While his real name is unknown, he has been given many nicknames by various Internet communities. These include "Bob Goatse", "The Goatse Man", "The Receiver", "Stinger", and "Gatasa".

Most recently it has been claimed that the Goatse man is a man named Kirk Johnson, another well known practitioner of anal stretching. This assumption is based on the position of a large mole directly above the Goatse man's anus; the mole is visible in the same location in some of Kirk Johnson's photographs (see link below). One of his photographs commonly used as a shock site is Lensman.jpg, in which he is posing in a similar manner to the Goatse.cx photo. It was found by users of the forums at Penny Arcade.

[edit]
History

According to webarchive, hello.jpg was given the caption "stinger". From June to July 2000, the site was replaced for that period with the text "What are you doing here?". The title at the time was "ten seconds down".

For Halloween 2003, the picture was changed to an image of the picture carved into a pumpkin. The other sections (and the mirror sites) weren't altered.

Goatse.cx once had an IRC server located at irc.goatse.cx, which showed the ASCII hello.jpg in the MOTD. The server was part of the IRC network Evolnet.

After complaints to NIC.CX (the regulation authority of .cx domains) by an office worker named Rhonda Clarke of Christmas Island, the site goatse.cx was taken down Friday, January 16, 2004. (Goat.cx and Hick.org/Goat remain active.) A petition has even been launched to bring goatse.cx back. The suspension of goatse.cx was discussed in detail on Kuro5hin. And on StileProject, a RIP Goatse cartoon was posted.

For a period in February 2004, the website Goat.cx displayed the message "This site has been shutdown temporarily due to a spam that references it. The spam was not sent out by the sites owner but the site is being shut down in order to help prevent profit from the spam." Directly linking to hello.jpg showed a red picture of a red background with the text in black, "This site is temporairly down". Below it was text in blue that read, "Do not click any links".

When one goes to the mirror hick.org/goat/, he or she will see the text,
"ALERT
The CX Registry has shut off the goatse.cx domain suddenly and without warning.
They have cowardly cited a section of their AUP with allows them to remove sites at their discretion.
Please e-mail info@nic.cx with your opinion of this matter." Below that is a link labeled "Original page", which leads to the original "Receiver" section. sc

[edit]
Alternative Locations

WARNING! All of these addresses lead directly to the pornographic image described above.

The website is available from at least five other locations, all of which are still up:

* http://hick.org/goat/ also http://198.247.175.96/goat/
* http://retropay.com/goatse/goatse.cx/
* http://web.archive.org/web/20030623201150/http://g oatse.cx/
* http://synflood.at/mirrors/goatse.cx/
* http://rokbom.com/

These sites have the same contents as Goatse.cx before it went down. Another mirror, apparently from an older version of the site, is available at http://goat.cx/.

[edit]
Organization

Goatse.cx has four sections, three of which have images of questionable taste:

* The "Receiver" section, showing the aforementioned hello.jpg. Before the picture is the text in black, "The goatse.cx lawyer has informed us that we need a warning! So.. if you are under the age of 18 or find this photograph offensive, please don't look at it. Thank you!" It also has links to http://www.dolphinsex.org/ and http://www.urinalpoop.org/. It once had a link to http://www.biganal.com/. The text below hello.jpg reads, "IMPORTANT NOTE: There are many merchandising attempts for goatse.cx around the web-- none of them are real, none of them are official. Do not buy this gimmick merchandise. The official goatse.cx merchandise is coming soon!" The title of this page is "Eh".
* The "Giver" section, showing a picture (giver.jpg) of a man on a boat, which has been artificially altered (with XV according to the XCREATOR tag within the JPEG itself) to appear that he has an oversized penis. The title of this page is "Whoa". The whole website contains an anal sex joke - that the Giver will be able to stick his oversized penis into the Receiver, and therefore, bring on highly pleasurable sexual intercourse for the two men.
* The "Feedback" section, where e-mails are exhibited.
* The "Contrib" section showcasing visitor contributions to the site. Contrib has additional variations of hello.jpg and giver.jpg, as well as other images and files. The title of this page is "Contributed Work". Warning: The page begins with an ASCII version of hello.jpg.
o bush.jpg is a picture of United States President George W. Bush, calling someone on a telephone in his office, with hello.jpg displayed on a laptop computer on his desk.
o collage-holyzoo.jpg is a collage of faces of different people affiliated with holyzoo.com and thinkattack.com, and a closeup on the gaping anus of the man in hello.jpg. The image contains the text "Special Thanks for being there for a laugh. From your friends at http://holyzoo.com and... http://THINKATTACK.com"
o goatse-wwii.jpg is a picture of a large snowball, with "goatse.cx" written on the side, chasing Adolf Hitler, Benito Mussolini, and Hideki Tojo.
o giver2.jpg is a picture of the Goatse giver holding his oversized penis.
o magiceye.jpg is a Magic Eye picture. After about 16 seconds, the image changes to that of a 256 color version of hello.jpg. It attempts to fool viewers by exploiting the fact that, although the server sends a MIME type stating the filename is a JPEG image, the image is in fact an animated GIF.
o warning.jpg is a warning sign picture telling people not to go to goatse.cx
o goatsex.swf is a Flash Movie, set to the hook from "MMMBop" by Hanson. The movie shows a large dildo being stuck into the anus of the man posing in hello.jpg. The background is from another gap.zip picture, gap8.jpg.
o Goatman.mp3 is an mp3 Music file. It takes up 518 KB.
o Foxy_goatse.mp3 is another mp3 music file, a parody of the Jimi Hendrix song Foxy Lady. It takes up 1061 KB.
o goatsecx-winamp.zip is a ZIP file containing a Winamp skin, depicting hello.jpg. It takes up 313 KB.

People sometimes link to goatse.cx images not shown on the actual webpages, such as loopback.jpg, a picture of a man looping his penis into his anus. There are also numerous other files in the directory http://www.goatse.cx/contrib/.

The image hello.jpg originates from a set of 40 images depicting the man performing various anal sexual acts. In those images, the man used dildos and butt plugs to stretch his anus. The images were located by the Stile Project and are also available from the "Contrib" section of the goatse.cx website under the filename gap.zip. hello.jpg is the third file in the archive, gap3.jpg.

[edit]
Geographic Location

The site uses the .cx country code, which is the top-level domain of Christmas Island, whose operators will not disclose registrants' personal information. The actual server of Goatse.cx is not located on Christmas Island, but in the United States and is owned by Hick.org, which is a website about computer programming. The Hick.org domain was registered by Matt Miller in Overland Park, Kansas. Both Goatse.cx and Hick.org originate from the same IP address; the server is located in the Kansas City, Missouri metro-region. Goat.cx, a mirror of Goatse.cx, is located in the Houston, Texas metro-region.

[edit]
Parodies and Tributes

Because nearly every frequent Internet user has been tricked into viewing the site at one time or another, it has become something of an Internet-wide in joke. As such, hello.jpg and the other images on the site are common subjects of parodies and tributes.

* The following three parodies are hosted on Yahoo! Geocities.
o http://www.geocities.com/bobmaloogakathy/frogsecx/ receiver.html - The "Receiver" hello.jpg here is a Kermit the Frog doll with an anus stuck on it. The "giver" giver.jpg shows a man taking off his pants and exposing his pubic hair. "Feedback" leads to http://hanniballecter.blogspot.com/ and "Contrib" leads to http://darko.blogspot.com/.
o http://www.geocities.com/electabuzz2002/lite.htm - Was originally like the Goatse.cx receiver section, but with hello.jpg replaced by the ASCII version found in the "Contrib" section of Goatse.cx. It has since been changed so that the "Receiver" and "Giver" are replaced by crude line drawings.
o http://www.geocities.com/internetgoat/ - This website has the Goatse warning, and fake links, as well as a link to this webpage, with the worda "Thanks for the hits!"
* The following parodies all originate from the same IP address, hosted in the Houston, Texas metro-region:
o Oralse.cx - The "Pussy" hello.jpg is that of a kitten, and the "Wiener" giver.jpg is that of a dachshund. Oralse.cx also has a "Contrib" section of more shots of the cat and the dog, as well as modified versions of the aforementioned pictures. It also had a "Feedback" section with its own letters.
o Analse.cx - This site has bunny.gif, which is a picture of bunch of cartoon rabbits, each with a pancake on its head, whom open their anuses in imitation of hello.jpg. The title of the page is "GoatsePancakeBunnyDance". A song called "bunny.mid" plays on the site. The string "Now this is something I just don't get. - Matthew 11:42" is seen in the source code. This site is also a spoof of Hampsterdance.
* Throatse.cx, another parody. For the "Receiver" hello.jpg, it showed a wide open mouth, and for the "Giver" giver.jpg, it showed an ice cream. The "Contrib" section had an ASCII version of the Throatse hello.jpg, and two flavors of the "Throatman", a takeoff of the "Goatman" MP3 song. Throatse also had a "Feedback" section. The site has since been taken down due to lease expiring.
* In the tradition of oralse.cx and analse.cx ("anti-shock" sites that imitate shock/curiosity websites but do not feature objectionable content) is an Internet trolling phenomenon where people advertise non-shock sites as containing pornographic or shocking matter. Commonly, the actual website linked-to is an image of a family pet, a recipe for sugar cookies, the Olsen twins' website, or the rules to a card game known as Ambition.
* Trollse.cx - a parody of the front page of goatse.cx, replacing the original picture with a picture of JYA figure Eric S. Raymond. The giver section has a cartoon of two men. One of them is clothed and sitting down in a chair. His oversized penis is bulging through the crotch of his red pants. In the background are pictures of Something Awful characters Cliff Yablonski and JeffK. The "contrib" only has an ascii picture of Raymond. This website is hosted in the Washington, DC metro-region. The site links to Slashdot and Slashnet.
* Xbo.cx, which had the Goatse.cx image altered so that it looks as if the man is covering his anus with a Microsoft XBox, and with a X-Box controller covering his penis and testicles. The page is titled "The Butcher". Others were "The Baker", which was "The Butcher" but with an Atari 2600 in place of the X-Box, and "The Candlestick Maker", which had the Goatse.cx giver with a joystick in place of the oversized penis. The website has been taken down due to the lease expiring, and was hosted in the Auckland, New Zealand metro-region. The X-Box picture (though not the Atari 2600 or the joystick) can be viewed at http://web.archive.org/web/20020526122729/http://w ww.xbo.cx/ .
* http://www.goatse.org/ - an illustration of Mario from the video game Super Mario 64 bending over, with the hello.jpg anus doctored onto the already doctored picture to show an anus to the viewer (The filename of the picture is mariotse.jpg).
* http://members.lycos.co.uk/ferreousx/goats.gif - A modified Penny_Arcade comic strip that contains a extremly pixilated version of goatse.
* http://www.pleaseeat.us/ - Shows a naked old woman in place of the hello.jpg picture.
* http://sam.zoy.org/fun/goatse/ - A gallery of Goatse parody pictures
* http://www.massivewang.com/prime and http://www.penguinhosting.net/~jpeck/prime/ - The Prime Number Shitting Goatse.cx Man - a parody of the Prime Number Shitting Bear, with the widely-known hello.jpg image replacing the bear.
* http://brentai.pyoko.org/ - "God is goatse-ing us" - an astral image whose details have apparently been modified to resemble goatse.cx
* http://conese.ath.cx/ - A re-enactment of hello.jpg using an ordinary traffic cone. Non-pornographic.
* Bartse.cx - For the "Receiver" page, it has a tatoo of Bart Simpson from The Simpsons, placed around a man's belly button to resemble hello.jpg. The "Giver" is a picture of a bat with a penis. The "Contrib" section shows the original hello.jpg ascii, but with the text "bartsex" replacing "goatsex".
* http://www.goatse.fi/ - This shows a picture of hello.jpg doctored onto a pack of Liggette & Myers cigarettes (The picture's filename is aski.jpg) with a caption in Finnish: "Irvistä elämälle, tupakkayhtiöt kiittävät. #work @ IRCNet" which means "Grimace at life, the tobacco companies thank you. #work @ IRCNet"
* http://forge.evula.net/fc/fc_goatse.jpg - An altered Family Circus comic
* http://www.redcoat.net/pics/couldsecx.jpg - A picture of the sky pulling a hello.jpg
* http://www.digitaldfw.com/uberzine/hax.asp?clip=32 - A modified video showing a man named "Goatse" being elected as the mayor of Fort Worth, Texas
* http://www.thinkattack.com/userFiles/replies/16899 .jpg - A picture of Saddam Hussein stuck inside the Goatse man in an altered hello.jpg. The person who altered the picture commented about the picture on the Thinkattack.com message board "They found Saddam in a dark hole..."
* http://www.thinkattack.com/userFiles/replies/16900 .jpg - A modified picture of Saddam Hussein having his mouth checked, replacing his mouth with the hello.jpg anus and two hands stretching it.
* http://www.klerck.org/dance.swf - The Goatse.cx dance Macromedia Flash program. The program first shows two stick figures dancing on a red highly pixelated "floor". Then, the music stops, and the picture zooms out to reveal hello.jpg. Also accessible at http://www.milkandcookies.com/links/5433/
* http://www.cadaverine.net/misc/hello.jpg - An altered hello.jpg, showing the face of cartoon dragon blocking the man's anus
* http://www.cellosoft.com/nash/garbage/photos/simon b-goatse.jpg - A picture of a teenage boy doing a Goatse pose. The photo has the goatse anus doctored onto the seat of the boy's pants.
* http://ftso.org/cobweb/Images/Artsy/goatsex01.gif - An altered hello.jpg, with two green, straight lines intersecting at the man's right leg, to the left of the anus. The text in green, "Ask no questions Give no answers Pass it along... dat iz all" was added.
* http://www.tworetards.com/issues/030123_13/images/ iraqse-or.jpeg - A doctored photograph of George Bush at the podium, modified to show him holding a piece of paper, with hello.jpg on it and the words "Iraq" below the hello.jpg picture
* http://isol8.org/index.php?topic=General&page= 2 - A watercolor painting that has been deemed a spinoff of hello.jpg
* http://web.archive.org/web/20010305142500/http://w ww.conhugeco.org/goatse.cx - Neo Goatse.cx, which has two sections - The Effect, which shows a picture of a man with a prolapsed rectum, and The Cause, which shows a pair of gap.zip pictures, the first depicting the Goatse man sitting on a large butt plug, the second with a pair of dildos inserted into his anus.
* http://goat.se/cx - features a photograph of a cat with its tail raised, showing its anus. There are no further pictures or links. The URL of this site is one of two possible URLs contain only the text of the original goatse.cx, the other URL being the unavailable http://go.at/secx.
* http://analcock.tk/ - The front page features a picture (ninja.gif) of a crudely drawn man with a wand in his hand, and a penis sticking out of his buttocks, ejaculating. The text "ANAL COCK" written on him. Instead of "the giver", there is "The Gordon" page, which shows a picture (Gordon.jpg, with the caption "stoko") of a teenager. The feedback section leads to the text "CLOCK". The contrib section contains the text "Nothing yet :(".

[edit]
External Links

* http://goatse.cx/ - Leads to the notice of the domain suspension.
* http://hick.org/goat/index-orig.html - The Goatse page at a new location. WARNING - This leads to the picture described above.
o http://www.hick.org/goat/mail.html - "Feedback" subsection with reader email selections. This page does not contain pornographic images.
* http://www.stileproject.com/ - located the complete image set. WARNING! This site contains pornographic and potentially offensive materials.
* http://www.fc-uk.org.uk/goatse/index.html - A satirical fictional interview with Bob Goatse.
* http://www.bmezine.com/news/people/A20210/plp56/ - Another interview, this one with an Italian man who claims to be the Goatse Man. WARNING! This page contains pornographic material similar to that at Goatse.cx.
* http://mjt.nysv.org/ - has a goatse tribute section.
* http://sam.zoy.org/fun/goatse/ - has a comprehensive goatse tribute section with many well-known (and many lesser-known) photoshoppings of the images from the site
* http://www.roflmao.com/hatejob - A redirect to Goat.cx
* http://adult.pornparks.com/rosebutt/kirk/001/index .htm - Photographs of a man named Kirk Johnson, who some claim to be the Goatse man. WARNING! This page contains pornographic material similar to that at Goatse.cx.
* http://www.detroithardcore.com/lensman.jpg - Kirk Johnson's "Lensman" photograph. It was originally able to be seen from the detroithardcore.com main page.
* See the official complaint (PDF) by an individual named Rhonda Clarke [1], the official note (PDF) to the domain's registrant and the current state of the goatse.cx whois entry.
* Petition launched to bring goatse.cx back.
* The suspension of goatse.cx was discussed in detail on Kuro5hin.
* http://static.stileproject.com/rnd/fp/ripgoatse.gi f - "RIP Goatse" cartoon
* http://linux.is.analdeluxe.de/ - The pumpkin picture

Kodak is the biggest bunch of whiners (0, Troll)

ObviousGuy (578567) | more than 10 years ago | (#9093675)

But I guess it?s like us Americans to take to court those who we can?t beat in the marketplace?

?This is my first post from a Linux box? I?m 1337 now??

Re:Kodak is the biggest bunch of whiners (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9093717)

you?re not that l33t because you?ve forgotten where your apostraphe is.

C?mon. All the l33t people have know where things are on teh keyboard.

Re:Kodak is the biggest bunch of whiners (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9093805)

They also know how to spell apostrophe and "have know" how to construct proper english sentences.

what's the non-obvious innovation here? (4, Insightful)

belmolis (702863) | more than 10 years ago | (#9093683)

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see what the non-obvious innovations are in these patents. The first one, for example, seems to describe a perfectly ordinary object system, no different from what has been in languages Smalltalk, C++, and CLOS for twenty years or more. The fact that the object system appears to be intended specifically for management of certain types of data doesn't make it any more innovative. Not that Sun's recent behavior makes me like them, but I wonder if Kodak's patents are valid.

Re:what's the non-obvious innovation here? (3, Informative)

the_duke_of_hazzard (603473) | more than 10 years ago | (#9093730)

Agree totally. The terms of the abstract of the first one at least are so completely vague as to be useless. It's far from clear what's supposed to be new in these patents - they describe various things which have existed in various forms for many years, and not just in computing. For the first one, they'd also have to sue pretty much anyone who uses any sort of standardised object interface technology, including, er, Microsoft and whoever markets CORBA in any way.

This is outrageous (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9093684)

If it wasn't for the sun, Kodak would have only seen a shadow of its potential.

Re:This is outrageous (1)

mrkslntbob (731248) | more than 10 years ago | (#9094238)

If it wasn't for the sun, there wouldn't be any shadows.

Re:This is outrageous (1)

Timothy Brownawell (627747) | more than 10 years ago | (#9094259)

If it wasn't for the sun, Kodak would have only seen a shadow of its potential.
No, not quite. Without Sun, Kodak would not even have seen a shadow of its potential.

After all, where do shadows come from?

Tim

Same old same old... (4, Interesting)

inphinity (681284) | more than 10 years ago | (#9093689)

From the patent text: "Multitasking computer system for integrating the operation of different application programs which manipulate data objects of different types"

Is it me, or does this summary feel suspiciously like every other programming language ever written? It seems to me that core concepts fundamental to any language shouldn't be a valid basis for IP...

Re:Same old same old... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9093753)

software patents is pretty lame. It's kinda surprising that it's kodak that is suing.

Re:Same old same old... (3, Informative)

sql*kitten (1359) | more than 10 years ago | (#9093775)

It seems to me that core concepts fundamental to any language shouldn't be a valid basis for IP...

I say this every time a patent discussion comes up on /., only it never seems to sink in.

You cannot patent an idea. You can only patent the IMPLEMENTATION of an idea. The title and summary of the patent describe what it does. The body of the patent describes how it is done. The HOW is what matters in a patent.

What Kodak is saying is that it (or rather its subsidiary Wang) invested time and money in devising a novel solution to a problem, then Sun - by whatever means - used that novel solution in its own product without compensating the original developers.

Perhaps Sun independently came to the same conclusions in their own labs. Perhaps they simply read the patent database and copied Kodak's solution. That's for the judge to decide. Either way, Sun's lawyers should have checked first.

Re:Same old same old... (3, Insightful)

Waffle Iron (339739) | more than 10 years ago | (#9093874)

Either way, Sun's lawyers should have checked first.

If every piece of new software were cleared against the vast number of vague, overly broad and non-novel software patent claims that the patent office has granted, then the software industry would promptly grind to a halt.

Not to mention that such checking of each piece of functionality against millions of claims would probably take more effort than writing the program in the first place (and lawyers cost much more per hour than developers).

Even that wouldn't protect you. Assessing the infringement potential of each patent claim vs. each piece of software is a judgement call. Even if your lawyer thinks that you're clear, it doesn't mean that the patent holder agrees. The only way to find out for sure is a costly trial (and possibly appeals).

Re:Same old same old... (1)

sql*kitten (1359) | more than 10 years ago | (#9093959)

lawyers cost much more per hour than developers

I dunno... it might actually be cheaper to simply contact the patent holder and license it than it would be to develop it yourself from scratch. That's one of the points of the patent system, after all, to encourage investment in research by providing a framework for getting paid for it by people who find your research relevant to them. Xerox has operated this way for years, as has ARM.

Not that the patent system isn't broken, at the moment. The Patent Office's attitude seems to be "grant the patent anyway, let the courts sort it out" rather than doing the checking they're supposed to. But that's a fault in the implementation of the system, the design is sound.

Re:Same old same old... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9094008)

"I dunno... it might actually be cheaper to simply contact the patent holder and license it than it would be to develop it yourself from scratch"

First you would have to know that what you want to do is covered by a patent, which was the point the previous poster was trying to make. You'd have to do a patent search before deciding to write any software to determine what has been patented to determine if you'd need to do it yourself or if you could licence other work.

Re:Same old same old... (1)

Too Much Noise (755847) | more than 10 years ago | (#9094248)

as the AC said, you have to know first there's a patent in the field. This is not trivial even for older patents. Then, for any new idea one would need to go through not only awarded patents, but pending applications also. And I'm talking obscure patents filed overseas, too. Then figure out whether any vaguely related ones can be infringing. How many lawyers per programmer would that require? any way you put it, all this does is skyrocket the R&D costs of any new application.

The patent system as it is was ok for a moderate research pace with very few players in a given field. The way things are now, you have no guarantee you don't start a completely new project and by the time you're done it will be plastered with partially covering patents held by others. It might be useful to have some of the research stages published just to be able to defend against litigation companies.

patents (4, Informative)

jlechem (613317) | more than 10 years ago | (#9093706)

Everyone knows patents are bad blah blah blah but let's take a look at these patents in question.

5,206,951 [uspto.gov] - Integration of data between typed objects by mutual, direct invocation between object managers corresponding to object types

5,421,012 [uspto.gov] - Multitasking computer system for integrating the operation of different application programs which manipulate data objects of different types

5,226,161 [uspto.gov] - Integration of data between typed data structures by mutual direct invocation between data managers corresponding to data types .

This just looks like object oriented programming to me. So how can they sue SUN over Java. I was under the impression you couldn't patent things like this.

Re:patents (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9093785)

More importantly

BOOPSI gadgets on Amiga was prior "art" if we read it as object data and not object code.

Even NextSteps objects I believe would fall under prior "art" but I am unsure.

Re:patents (2, Informative)

servoled (174239) | more than 10 years ago | (#9093853)

Did you read the claims or only the title? Please try to remember that the title is only there to give a quick idea what the patent is about, the summary is there only to give a slightly more detailed idea, the specification is there to tell the reader how the patent may be put into use and the claims are there to define what the patent covers. If you only read the title you have no idea what the patent actually covers or how it is implemented, so you basically have no idea what the patent is actually about.

It is also important to note that Kodak is not suing SUN using the title of their patents, only the claims which are the only part of the patent which provide any protection at all.

Re:patents (1)

jlechem (613317) | more than 10 years ago | (#9094326)

"If you only read the title you have no idea what the patent actually covers or how it is implemented"

I read through both the title and description but the not the full claim. How could the system work if the title has nothing to do with what the patent covers. I could see the implementation being somewhat different due to technical problems but the description and title should be very indicative of what the patent covers. Otherwise I'm going to invent a new computer chip or some material and call the patent title flying assbags.

Re:patents (1)

servoled (174239) | more than 10 years ago | (#9094436)

The title is only there to help people who are looking through a number of patents get a vague idea of what the patent talks about. For example, the first patent listed in the story is entitled: "Integration of data between typed objects by mutual, direct invocation between object managers corresponding to object types" which one tell someone that the patent has something to do with data objects and object managers. If there were looking for something along those lines, they could then read more into it to see what the patent is specifically doing with those data objects and object managers. However, if they were looking for the proverbial better mouse trap, then they would obviously move along to the next patent.

Titles are just vague descriptions, nothing more. The problem most people on slashdot have is that they read the title and think: "Damn, there's tons of prior art for that" without actually reading to find out what the patent is actually doing.

If you did file an application for a computer chip with that title the examiner would probably just change it for you, or else make you change it to something which better describes the claimed invention.

Re:patents (1)

Flyboy Connor (741764) | more than 10 years ago | (#9094368)

I was under the impression you couldn't patent things like this.

You can attempt to patent anything. Then a patent examiner comes and he has a few hours to decide whether or not your application is valid, despite the fact that he has no knowledge at all about the subject. Sometimes the patent is granted, under the notion that if it isn't valid, this can always be fought out in court.

Re:patents (4, Insightful)

Minna Kirai (624281) | more than 10 years ago | (#9094463)

I was under the impression you couldn't patent things like this.

I guess you're new to Slashdot, because we've been complaining about the whole idea of software patents for years.

The fact is, you can't write any nontrivial computer program without infringing on multiple patents.

You point out that these "inventions" seem obvious. That's certainly true today, and maybe was true back when the patents were filed (some are 10+ years old). But looking at the validity of patents from the highest level, there's actually a factor much more important than obviousness: "Would the 'inventor' have created and then not hidden this thing if she didn't anticipate patent protection?"

If the answer is yes, then by the US Constitution, patents shouldn't apply. (Constitution states that Intellectual Property is allowed only to "promote progress of science and useful arts").

That's why medicines should be patentable (because few people will go through the enormous investment to test a drug if generics can copy it immediately) but most software and business practices (like Amazon's "One Click") shouldn't be (because Amazon would've invented and implemented that system regardless of having patent protection)

Fortunatly Sun has clarified lately ... (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9093713)

... their position on Patent on Java. That's why maybe some tought "ok, let sue them" ;-)

Ok, some offtopic now, i saw on /. some dumb things opensource & Java. As a reminder, thanks to Apach Group you have no more (!!) limitation build a opensource version complient with the spec.

See for instance a "nice" reference in the Tiger specification (upcoming J2SE1.5)

http://www.jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=176

4.1 This section contains any additional information that the submitting Member wishes to include in the JSR.

Sun plans to adhere to the proposed new JSPA licensing model for this JSR, including allowing independent implementations, licensing the TCK separately from the RI, minimizing shared code, and licensing any remaining shared code (such as the verifier) on simple non-restrictive licensing terms. In addition Sun plans to make it easier for academic and non-profit groups to obtain access to the RI and TCKs.

So why is GNU's classpath still lagging ? anybody at FSF care about the advantage this could bring to OSS comunity ? Think of it Mr RMS ;-)

Let's get GNU's Classpath full Java complient !!!

This is not at all trollish in mind, it is just something i warn people that is now possible, and whatever Sun is willing to do in the future they can no more do anything about that ;-)

Of course some people, said that the RI should be OSed (cf. the last ran between Sun & IBM couple of days ago). I agree if it is a GPL, but if is a less viral license then the risk of seen MS take advantage of this to weaken the platform is high.

Meanwhile, why wait from Sun, when we can get our own ;-)

Well..... (3, Insightful)

10101001011 (744876) | more than 10 years ago | (#9093719)

I'm not a fan of Kodak. Their close-minded strategies, their crappy "Easy Share" cameras with even worse batteries, their kiosks that supposedly make photo imaging simple and yet take longer and often don't work and I most certainly detest any company that relies on suing people to make money (yes, this means I hate law firms too). I can however say that it is sad to see Kodak going this way. They were, at one point in my life, a very strong and well-respected company who was on the leading edge of photography and lent a lot to the world. Unfortunely they lack any adaptability at this point in time, their profits are dwindling and their company could be facing bankruptcy if there is no upsurge in 35mm camera purchases...

As I said, it will be sad to see them go, though when the inevitable does happen, I hope they smile for the camera....

The patents (3, Interesting)

Pranjal (624521) | more than 10 years ago | (#9093724)


The patents deal with objects and the way objects can be manipulated in a computer. Basically it deals with object oriented programming. Now someone tell me that OOPS is not patented a technology and we don't have to pay a royalty everytime we write a program using the OOPS paradigm.

So the question is what ramifications do these software patents have for the programming world as a whole? And why is Kodak targetting only Java and therefore Sun. Why not C++ or other OOPS languages?

Re:The patents (4, Insightful)

ites (600337) | more than 10 years ago | (#9093743)

Because there are only two companies that promote and sell OOPS languages on a large scale. 1: Microsoft. 2: Sun.

When launching patent lawsuits, it is generally best to go after smaller players first. If Sun were to accept Kodak's patents (or were to lose the court action), Kodak would have a better basis for going after Microsoft.

They're not going to sue the C++ standards committee because it won't earn them anything except hostility.

Re:The patents (1)

sql*kitten (1359) | more than 10 years ago | (#9093795)

They're not going to sue the C++ standards committee because it won't earn them anything except hostility.

Not to mention that the C++ standard committee doesn't actually produce anything other than standards. Individual vendors produce compilers.

Patents would apply to the latter, not the former.

Re:The patents (3, Interesting)

Too Much Noise (755847) | more than 10 years ago | (#9093979)

Looking over the first patent it appears to be a library issue, not a compiler one. Unless I read it totally wrong, this could have even CORBA/COM as prior art. For example:
  • An object based data processing system including an extensible set of object types and a corresponding set of "object managers" wherein each object manager is a program for operating with the data stored in a corresponding type of object. The object managers in general support at least a standard set of operations. Looks a lot like interfaces 'operating on' implementations to me.
  • Any program can effect performance of these standard operations on objects of any type by making an "invocation" request. In response to an invocation request, object management services (which are available to all object managers) identifies and invokes an object manager that is suitable for performing the requested operation on the specified type of data. Can you spell factory class?
  • Data interchange services are provided for communicating data between objects of different types, using a set of standard data interchange formats. err ... marshalling?


so ... what's innovative here?

Re:The patents (1)

sql*kitten (1359) | more than 10 years ago | (#9094016)

I read it totally wrong, this could have even CORBA/COM as prior art.

CORBA and COM are standards, not products.

The CORBA standard says WHAT you must do to be CORBA. One CORBA product might implement it one way, another CORBA product might implement it the other way. CORBA doesn't care HOW you do it internally, or even what language you do it in, only that you present a CORBA-compliant interface to the rest of the system.

What Kodak is saying is that they have developed a novel means to do the HOW. That there are other means to do what WHAT is irrelevant here.

So you cannot say that CORBA is prior art. You might be able to say that a specific implementation of CORBA is. But then again, without going deep into the details of the HOW, you might not.

Re:The patents (2, Interesting)

Too Much Noise (755847) | more than 10 years ago | (#9094181)

well, the first patent at least is just a spec - there's no implementation attached (the filing has only 55 pages, including figures). Moreover, they use generic examples (folders, spreadsheets) about how to use the spec, not exact details (app spreadsheet101 does this and that using ObjectManager105). The bulk of the filing are function names and descriptions, field sizes and such. These are always part of the interface spec, including CORBA.

and no, it's not Kodak that developed it - they just got the patents of a dying software company ^_^

Re:The patents (1)

Pranjal (624521) | more than 10 years ago | (#9093835)

They're not going to sue the C++ standards committee because it won't earn them anything except hostility.

True but that doesn't stop them from targetting the small players which come out with C++ compilers. There is something inherently suspicious why they should only target SUN. You have borland, a much smaller player. Is Java technology used in digital camera's? If it is we found our smoking gun.

Re:The patents (1)

njcoder (657816) | more than 10 years ago | (#9093900)

"if Sun were to accept Kodak's patents"

I thought this was the case. In a statement that Sun had put out a couple years ago (not sure on the time but it was during a previous round of open sourcing java discussions) McNealy said they couldn't open source java and specifically pointed out Kodak as a company that they were licensing technology from. They didn't specify exactly what it was from Kodak. It may not be these patents he was talking about.

If it is these, and Sun wins, could this be the thing that allows Sun to open source Java?

Re:The patents (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9093862)

"Because there are only two companies that promote and sell OOPS languages on a large scale. 1: Microsoft. 2: Sun."

Borland promotes and sells Delphi which is fully OO. Where do you get these stats from. Magic 8 ball?

Re:The patents (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9094037)

Looks more like CORBA than C++ to me.

sun vs kodak (3, Insightful)

ardiri (245358) | more than 10 years ago | (#9093741)

this i think will be an interesting debate - first, the patents can be flagged as suspicious; however, they do predate java (just) :P i think that kodak has been spurred on from this due to the sun vs m$ settlement recently.

first things that come to my mind

- why wait nearly 10 years?
(i started Java development in 1995, certified 1999)
is there any reason why kodak didn't come forward when Java became public in 1995? they say they'll been trying to resolve it for 2-3 years, but that still marks it as 2001-2002 (6-7 years after creation).

- can you really due if no money is being made?
sun doesn't sell Java, so, technically kodak is not losing money from the language itself. sure Sun gets side-effect benefits from Java (publicity et al). but, as the Java creator, its always been free - and, not a single dime has been made on the language itself. the sun vs' m$ was for anti-trust issues, not the language.

these type of things make me want to patent anything i can think of and then wait for an innocent company to make it a reality and then sue their asses off.

Re:sun vs kodak (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9093856)

Is six figures for embedded runtime no money? If I had that much "no money" I would not be reading this crap on a beautiful saturday evening. I'd be drunk.

Re:sun vs kodak (2, Informative)

_|()|\| (159991) | more than 10 years ago | (#9093927)

why wait nearly 10 years? ... can you really [s]ue if no money is being made?

Kodak only acquired the patents in 1997. Wang didn't know or didn't care about the alleged infringement.

"A patentee has the exclusive right to make, use, or sell the invention ... Anyone who, without permission, makes, uses or sells the patented invention is a direct infringer of the patent" [Intellectual Property in a Nutshell].

Re:sun vs kodak (3, Informative)

abulafia (7826) | more than 10 years ago | (#9093944)

- can you really due if no money is being made?
sun doesn't sell Java, so, technically kodak is not losing money from the language itself. sure Sun gets side-effect benefits from Java (publicity et al). but, as the Java creator, its always been free - and, not a single dime has been made on the language itself. the sun vs' m$ was for anti-trust issues, not the language.

Of course you can sue. The intent of a patent is to grant a limited monopoly. Any unauthorized use of the patented invention is covered.

If that weren't the case, (a) people involved with Open Source wouldn't be so freaked out about patents, and (b) strategic attacks on patent holders that didn't involve making money directly on the covered invention would make the value of a patent significantly significantly smaller than it is today.

I'm not defending patents; I'm just stating the obvious. (Hey, what's slashdot for?)

Re:sun vs kodak (2, Insightful)

Euler (31942) | more than 10 years ago | (#9093953)

A patent attorney would say: patent defenses [ipwatchdog.com] a patent must be enforced within a reasonable amount of time that infringement is known, and there must be an intended use claimed by the patent.

Kodak certainly is pretty late in enforcing its patent, and I think its unlikely that they have a practical use either.

It seems to me that the reason Sun couldn't settle before going to trial is that there is nothing to settle here. Kodak is just wasting everyone's time and money.

The patents aren't about OOP. They're about... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9093757)

Distributed objects and object brokerage. CORBA, etc.

I can think of two earlier examples. NeXT's Portable Distributed Objects (PDO) did exactly what the patents claim -- and in 1990. Apple also had a distributed object system in their embedding system for OS 9 (I forget the name).

The case may not be well founded, however... (2, Interesting)

AchilleTalon (540925) | more than 10 years ago | (#9093816)

the legal action maybe for something in the decision of Sun to not release Java to the open source community.

I may be totally wrong, but this kind of action altought not directly profitable to the suer, may accomplish other goals, read FUD.

More shady MS$ financing? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9093817)

I wonder if, in a few months, we'll hear about how The Evil Empire (Redmond) has been providing back-door financing to Kodak (like M$ did with SCO).

Kodak Trying to Revive Itself with Litigation? (1)

FlipmodePlaya (719010) | more than 10 years ago | (#9093871)

We talk to much here on /. about companies like SCO trying to dig themselves out of the red by suing for money. I don't know anything at all about this case, but I'm wondering if this is happening here. I live in Rochester, where Kodak is our largest employer, and all we ever hear about is Kodak losing money, closing divisions, and outsourcing labor.

I'm always appalled when the RIAA steals money from 12 year olds to try and keep from dying. Yet now that it may be (probably not, I trust that they have a ligitamate case) happening to a company that employs many of my friends, I'm rooting for them.

Re:Kodak Trying to Revive Itself with Litigation? (1)

r.jimenezz (737542) | more than 10 years ago | (#9094056)

I'm always appalled when the RIAA steals money from 12 year olds to try and keep from dying. Yet now that it may be (probably not, I trust that they have a ligitamate case) happening to a company that employs many of my friends, I'm rooting for them.

It is only human, I guess. I just hope you weren't part of yesterday's [slashdot.org] bashing against SCO employees for not leaving a company with dubious business practices? That would be too ironic IMHO.

Guess I must be new around here...

That domain name (1)

Talrias (705583) | more than 10 years ago | (#9093878)

Wait a minute, that domain name doesn't resolve!

Do companies... (5, Funny)

Phidoux (705500) | more than 10 years ago | (#9093891)

...in the USA ever take time off from their busy legal schedules to do business?

There's one Good Thing about this... (1)

Prototerm (762512) | more than 10 years ago | (#9093918)

Sun has to fight this suit, and not someone in the Open Source community. IANAL, but I wonder if their liability would be the same if they had GPL'd the code.

From looking at the patents, however, I'd imagine there's a lot of prior art. For example, would sharing data structures between programs or libraries using Inter Process Communication, and semaphores (handled by code serving as a manager of data objects) be in violation of the patents?

If Sun looses, however, it looks to me like C# and .NET would also violate Kodak's patents. Was this on Sun's mind when it signed that agreement with Microsoft? It might be to Microsoft's benefit to help Sun fight this one. It would be ironic, though, if Microsoft had to come to Java's rescue to save their own skin.

Re:There's one Good Thing about this... (0, Flamebait)

Rick and Roll (672077) | more than 10 years ago | (#9094380)

From looking at the patents, however, I'd imagine there's a lot of prior art. For example, would sharing data structures between programs or libraries using Inter Process Communication, and semaphores (handled by code serving as a manager of data objects) be in violation of the patents?

No. That would be quite a stretch, to call processes objects, and system calls messaging. The fact that they accomplish the same thing doesn't matter. Applying it to objects here is the innovation. You wish you thought of it before Kodak. These are dealing with object management interfaces, objects, run-time structure. None of these are any part of what a kernel does. You folks wish you could be as innovative as Kodak.

--Patent Apologist

Kodak is Dumb. (1, Informative)

DAldredge (2353) | more than 10 years ago | (#9093937)

This is the same kodak that is offshoring film production because they are unable to compete with Fuji Film.

Fuji Film is made in the USA.

Kodak exes are just a bunch of idiots who could not give away the cure for cancer.

Oak existed before 1993 (3, Informative)

Wookie Monster (605020) | more than 10 years ago | (#9093951)

The Kodak patents are dated 1993 and 1995. The Oak programming language, which is the basis of Java, existed by 1992. See Wikipedia [wikipedia.org] .

This appears to me to be a case of prior art, by Java itself. I guess Kodak thinks changing a product's name is equivalent to it being born. Anything that existed before never happened.

Re:Oak existed before 1993 (4, Informative)

servoled (174239) | more than 10 years ago | (#9094031)

To bad the 1993 and 1995 dates are meaningless as far as prior art is concerned. The important dates are the filing dates and priotity dates, the issue date does not matter. All three patents have priority to United States patent application Ser. No. 07/088,622 entitled Data Integration by Object Management by Dana Khoyi et al., filed Aug. 21, 1987.

So, for an item to qualify as prior art, it must be data prior to August 21, 1987 which by the dates you have given, Oak does not meet.

Re:Oak existed before 1993 (1)

mr_majestyk (671595) | more than 10 years ago | (#9094332)

All three patents have priority to United States patent application Ser. No. 07/088,622 entitled Data Integration by Object Management by Dana Khoyi et al., filed Aug. 21, 1987.

Interesting...that means the 17 years of exclusivity granted by the patent are almost up, right? In that case, Kodak doesn't have much more time to grab what they can.

Re:Oak existed before 1993 (2, Informative)

servoled (174239) | more than 10 years ago | (#9094394)

Under the pre-1995 patents were granted terms of 17 years from the issue date (i.e. the 1993 and 1995) dates. After 1995 it was changed to 20 years from the filing date. So, these patents would be in effect until at least 2010.

See here [lectlaw.com] for more information on determining the expiration dates of patents.

Re:Oak existed before 1993 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9094333)

At least, Smalltalk exists since the 70's.

Re:Oak existed before 1993 (1)

geoff lane (93738) | more than 10 years ago | (#9094500)

But this is essentially about programming style - Lisp has been around a long time and programs using object-like access methods for about as long.

In keeping form... (2, Interesting)

Roached (84015) | more than 10 years ago | (#9094013)

...with the finest traditions of companies going down the toilet, Kodak has resorted to the "litigate to make a final buck" tactic.

Software Patents storm in Europe (2, Interesting)

frankie_guasch (164676) | more than 10 years ago | (#9094173)

We europeans have luck because the European Parlament decided against software patents [eu.int] . Now this is in jeopardy.
The patent officials in the Commission and Council are abusing the legislative process of the EU. Their convoluted and misleading Patent Newspeak, negotiated in intransparent backroom dealings, is an insult to the European Parliament, the European Economic and Social Committee, the Committee of Regions and the innumerable experts and concerned citizens who have engaged in serious investigations on this directive project. It is unacceptable that the Council is throwing away all their hard work without any substantial justification whatsoever.
One to blame is the Irish Presidence, Sponsored by Microsoft [eu2004.ie] .
FFII [ffii.org] web site with more info about software patents.
Soon there will be ellections for the European Parlament, take care of what you vote and if you have the ocasion, ask the politians about this issue.

News.com.com.com.com (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9094192)

Why so many .com???

Better act fast (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9094249)

Where's that .NET SDK download you nerds keep talking about in hushed tones?

Freaking Kodak parasites... (0, Flamebait)

slashdot_commentator (444053) | more than 10 years ago | (#9094260)


Take a look at those patents.

Didn't those idiots ever hear of CORBA?

Of course, its Sun's own fault. If they weren't so anal-retentive about control of the language, they could of submitted it to an open-standards body, and then Kodak would have had a hell of a time trying to enforce those patents...

Kodak Products are a Proprietary Nightmare (3, Informative)

wheelgun (178700) | more than 10 years ago | (#9094266)

Kodak's biggest fault is a tendency to rely on proprietary products for profit. Ask a vintage camera collector if he uses any of his old Kodak cameras. The answer will likely be "hell no!"

This is because most Kodak cameras were made to use propietary Kodak film formats like 620 instead of superior open formats like 120 and 220. I have a Kodak II Tourist bellows camera that collects dust because it uses 620.

My mom's old Instamatic is a another example of this Kodak problem. Her Instamatic 700, which she took around Europe in the 1960s is useless, as it uses a film format Kodak decided to stop making in the late 1980s.

Kodak could be raking in the dough from film sales for these old cameras. They exist in attics and storage boxes by the hundreds of thousands. But Kodak will never see that money, because they themselves chose to stop making the film and nobody makes modern cameras for those formats anyway.

5,226,161 sounds like Perl's tie (1)

Camel Pilot (78781) | more than 10 years ago | (#9094270)

The claims are a case study why software patents should never be allowed.

I am not trained in reading patentease but Patent 5,226,161 [uspto.gov] sounds a lot like Perl's tie feature where you can "link" a variable to a "data object" such as a file, database, serial port, shared memory, etc. I am sure prior art will crush this claim.
Load More Comments
Slashdot Login

Need an Account?

Forgot your password?