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Rails Bigwig Rails on Rails Community

ScuttleMonkey posted more than 6 years ago | from the less-than-elegant-exit-strategies dept.

Programming 616

Zed Shaw, creator of the popular Mongrel HTTP daemon / library, has decided it was high time to tear into the Ruby/Rails community for many different complaints that he has been collecting over the last few years. "Rails is a Ghetto" is Shaw's self-proclaimed exit strategy from the Rails community. "This is that rant. It is part of my grand exit strategy from the Ruby and Rails community. I don't want to be a 'Ruby guy' anymore, and will probably start getting into more Python, Factor, and Lua in the coming months. I've got about three or four more projects in the works that will use all of those and not much Ruby planned. This rant is full of stories about companies and people who've either pissed in my cheerios somehow or screwed over friends. I can back all of them up from emails, IRC chat logs, or with witnesses. Nothing in here is a lie unless it's really obviously a lie through exaggeration, and there's a lot of my opinion as well."

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So what (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21887258)

I've been saying RoR sucks for years. Where's my story?

Re:So what (5, Funny)

stoolpigeon (454276) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887278)

apparently you didn't use enough profanity or brag enough about martial arts skills and willingness to fight anyone who disagrees with you. ramp that up and see what happens.

Re:So what (4, Funny)

ducomputergeek (595742) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887424)

Chuck Norris came along and bent the ruby rails into loops!

Re:So what (2, Insightful)

colmore (56499) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887776)

Here's a bit of a hint to in-shape nerds everywhere:

Shut up about martial arts. Martial arts is for pro bodyguards and nerds with inferiority complexes. Are you a pro bodyguard?

I'm sure it's a nice skill to know, but you're still going to lose a fight against anyone who's been in more than a halfahandful of real ones before, so don't get too cocky.

Rent a boxing ring? Jeeesus... what a bourgie way to threaten an ass-beating.

Mine is Bigger than Yours! (3, Funny)

fm6 (162816) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887962)

Shut up about martial arts. Martial arts is for pro bodyguards and nerds with inferiority complexes. Are you a pro bodyguard?
So, you're saying we're all nerds with inferiority complexes? I have only thing to say to that: so what else is new?

As for pro bodyguards: if they're there to protect you, and not just to show off how important you are, then they carry Uzis.

Re:So what (1)

TheDreadSlashdotterD (966361) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887978)

Didn't Bruce Lee once say that the best way to beat a martial artist that has trained for 10 years was to train a year of boxing and a year of wrestling?

Re:So what (2, Funny)

pudge (3605) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887392)

I've been saying RoR sucks for years. Where's my story?
Well, you have to do it non-anonymously, silly AC!

Re:So what... R.. (1)

davidsyes (765062) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887512)

rrrrr, mayte!

Re:So what (1)

fatphil (181876) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887592)

You probably didn't say it in a "stupid little blog". (Yes, I RTFA!)

It's sad that this will reflect on Ruby itself (5, Interesting)

DuranteAlighieri (1204994) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887614)

I have been using Ruby since before Rails existed, and the whole Rails "community" has been highly suspicious to me from the start. Between outrageous claims and a far too religion-like mindset I just kept my distance waiting for the hype to go away again. It seemed to much like a marketing before technology movement (akin to say, the Java it derided so much (for good reason)).

You can see the difference between the old Ruby community and the Rails evangelists in many threads on the main Ruby mailing list throughout the last few years. Some of us already warned that in the end Rails may be a bad thing for Ruby back when the marketing blitz started, and now it seems this might hold true after all.

It's not a fate a very nice, expressive language made by an incredibly modest guy deserves. I hope more Ruby aficionados distance themselves clearly from the Rails hype.

Re:So what (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21887936)

You didn't use such colorful language as "I couldn't get a gang of monkeys to rape me".

Now, I don't actually know what he means by that, but it's the sort of excitement that apparently gets you on the front page of slashdot.

Ruby (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21887270)

Sucks. It's immature.

Re:Ruby (4, Insightful)

nuzak (959558) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887472)

Apparently so are some of its former developers.

Clever title, but "Pissy Foul-Mouthed Drama Queen Makes Histrionic Exit from Rails" would have been more accurate. I don't much care for rails either, but I do hope any other project he hops onto doesn't look to him for their public face.

Re:Ruby (4, Interesting)

Watts Martin (3616) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887732)

Clever title, but "Pissy Foul-Mouthed Drama Queen Makes Histrionic Exit from Rails" would have been more accurate.
While I (sort of) hate to say it, this shouldn't be a real surprise to anyone who's read Zed Shaw's blog and even Mongrel's official web site... well, we'll just say that the fellow always came across to me as someone who was more interested in railing than Rails, if you get my drift.

I like Mongrel -- I use it to run my Instiki web site -- and think Shaw's an undeniably good programmer. But there's a certain kind of personality in a (fortunately small) subset of tech-heads, that assumes that the sheer brilliance they bring to their work is all that matters. You'd better listen to them because they're fucking brilliant and you're not them and don't you fucking forget it. I have more than one acquaintance who exhibits this attitude -- and who has a whole lot of trouble finding and keeping work. Hmm.

Oddly, I'm exploring Python and Django now after my own long detour through Rails, without quite accomplishing anything on my own part other than cementing an exasperation with PHP (version 4 in particular). Running that Instiki instance is part of what's lessened the appeal of Rails. I don't know how much of that can be blamed on Instiki itself, but I'm pretty sure the answer is "not all of it." But I digress.

Team Dynamics Lead to Tantrums (5, Insightful)

eldavojohn (898314) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887276)

Before you spend the time reading this, let me point out that this isn't really technically oriented. I was hoping for some massive teardown of Ruby/Rails performance or load handling capabilities but ... yeah, didn't take away much from this other than this 'Zed' character can be quite abrasive.

Only a fucking tool bag piece of shit would:

* spend 10-20 minutes calling me names over IRC,
* not have the balls to say any of that to my face,
* say I'm a dick for wanting to use a different (established) publish/review model,
* and then demolish such an important file for a project,
* keeping everyone stumped and pissed for an hour,
* therefore proving me right.

This is exactly what makes Rails a ghetto. A bunch of half-trained former PHP morons who never bother to sit down and really learn the computer science they were too good to study in college. BTW, this is true about Kevin as he's an English major or something stupid (and it shows).

Hats off to you Kevin, you fucking prick. I'm enjoying my vacation too.
Ok, this is the summation of his first point. He got into a verbal argument with someone on his team about how patches should be handled. Kevin thought people should be able to submit patches to his workspace while Zed vehemently did not.

People commonly have disagreements, work them out.

The fact that this (largely nontechnical) issue is his first point disheartens me and makes me wary of ever working with Zed no matter how brilliant he is. Perhaps this is another example of how non-personal communication (forums/IRC/IMs/e-mail) leads to heated debates over absolutely nothing. I would start to point out that Zed did call Kevin a 'mofo' first before Kevin called him a 'dick' but I would hesitate as name calling and the like is for children.

It's a wonder Zed gets anything done other than by himself to me.

As for his complaints about companies, I have to warn him that bad companies are everywhere ... just like bad people. What does any of this have to do with Ruby or Rails? Why are you so certain this is going to die? Because there are some idiots here and there trying to use it?

I hate to say this but after reading this first part of the rant, I think Zed is just as big (if not half) of the problem of the community being in shambles as any of his targets are.

Re:Team Dynamics Lead to Tantrums (4, Interesting)

MyDixieWrecked (548719) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887356)

yeah, I read 3/4 of this and all his complaints have been about people that have hired him to do projects and the fact that the Django crew is a lot nicer to talk to and are cool and smart guys.

All his complaints stem from him not getting along with people, not getting paid on time, the fact that the majority of the people jumping on rails aren't smart enough to properly implement things and that he really seems to be an abrasive character.

I mean, the first several paragraphs are nothing but him talking shit about kicking people in their respective mouths.

Aside from the fact that it's about rails, why is this on slashdot, exactly?

Re:Team Dynamics Lead to Tantrums (1)

duffbeer703 (177751) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887692)

It was on delicious/popular yesterday, so obviously it must be interesting. Probably got digged too.

Re:Team Dynamics Lead to Tantrums (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21887462)

There were some nuggets of information hidden amongst the general whining though.

Things like having complained to the rails team about its thread safety and having the rails team stubbornly insist that it wasn't possible to make it thread-safe up until the point where someone went off and wrote a better version that was thread-safe. Things like that, if it's true, don't inspire a whole lot of confidence in RoR, regardless of how tactless the critique is.

Yes, he's got the kind of personality flaws that are, unfortunately, all too common in the tech industry. But I don't think that alone means we should automatically dismiss everything he says.

Re:Team Dynamics Lead to Tantrums (2, Interesting)

Samgilljoy (1147203) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887470)

Everything you say is very true, although I do cut him a break for saying up front that it was a rant. As long as you admit that, you free yourself from the strictest requirements of argumentation.

Personally I get hung up on the conflict between asserting superior education on the one hand, and then going on about fighting skills on the other. But he's not me, and I don't know what demons he has to exorcise (and I'm not among those criticized )),so more power to him.

We're all entitled to vent now and again, I suppose.

What I really want to know is why TechCrunch did a piece on this.

Re:Team Dynamics Lead to Tantrums (1)

random0xff (1062770) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887662)

It's not really technical, but if you skip the first part you get some nice stuff:

If you tell me that your social network will take on facebook because it includes baby pictures then I'm going to laugh in your face. They are an established player with CIA backing.
Ha!

Re:Team Dynamics Lead to Tantrums (1)

ShinmaWa (449201) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887826)

Only a fucking tool bag piece of shit would:
* spend 10-20 minutes calling me names over IRC,
* not have the balls to say any of that to my face,
You know, the irony of this bit alone just makes me wanna giggle like a schoolgirl.

Re:Team Dynamics Lead to Tantrums (2, Insightful)

msobkow (48369) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887912)

Personally I can't believe Slashdot published this "article" as news. It's just some guy having an ego-stroking rant.

Oh shit look at his picture (2, Insightful)

CmdrTaco (troll) (578383) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887282)

What a monster faggot.

Re:Oh shit look at his picture (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21887506)

Mod parent up... +5, Troll

kthanx baiye!

Rails drops the bomb (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21887292)

I'm not sure which was a worse headline:

Rails Bigwig Rails on Rails Community
or
Rails Bigwig Zed Shaw drops Bomb on Community (from Firehose)

Still no job? (5, Funny)

jamie (78724) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887296)

He sounds like a real people person. I can't imagine why companies aren't jumping at the chance to hire this guy.

Re:Still no job? (4, Funny)

pudge (3605) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887336)

Hm. He wrote:

You don't like what I've said, then write something in reply but fuck you if you think you're gonna talk to me like you can hurt me.
Hey Zed: I could hurt you.

Really bad.

I could hurt you so bad you would forget that you were even hurt. You would run screaming like a little girl to your happy place.

And your only recourse is to write your pathetic little rebuttals in your stupid little blog.

Re:Still no job? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21887670)

No you couldn't, you fat homo.

Re:Still no job? (3, Insightful)

pudge (3605) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887774)

Couldn't what?

You are apparently confused. I already did it. He said, fuck you if you think you're gonna talk to me like you can hurt me. So I did precisely that. I have completed my task, my victory is right there for all to see, and I've proven you wrong when you say I couldn't.

Re:Still no job? (1, Troll)

MightyMartian (840721) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887736)

And then, just when you think you couldn't find a person more pathetic and worthless than the stupid ranting tit, you came along to prove that no matter how low someone sinks, there is someone else willing to go a little lower.

Re:Still no job? (1)

pudge (3605) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887780)

And then, just when you think you couldn't find a person more pathetic and worthless than the stupid ranting tit, you came along to prove that no matter how low someone sinks, there is someone else willing to go a little lower.
You, too, are confused. In fact, I did not go lower than him. How could I? I responded directly to what he said. That is not lower, but at precisely the same level.

Re:Still no job? (-1, Troll)

MightyMartian (840721) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887846)

I'm not confused. You're an arrogant piece of regurgitated donkey swill. I mean, the very thought that you would issue such a lame-ass threat indicates that no matter how idiotic and worthless he is, you will always be a few degrees more idiotic and worthless.

Re:Still no job? (5, Funny)

raju1kabir (251972) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887834)

Too late, I already beat the shit out of Zed this morning. He was coming out of Starbucks carrying a Tazo Chai Crème and giggling about his new Hello Kitty cravat, and frankly, I just couldn't help myself. One open hand to the face, and he dropped like a bad packet hitting ipf, and then just sort of sat there on the pavement cringing and giggling. A couple girl scouts came by and kicked him in the teeth, then skipped off laughing as he threatened through a rain of tears to badmouth them in his blog.

Re:Still no job? (5, Insightful)

AuMatar (183847) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887354)

What, you don't like profanity laced rants aimed at you and your employees, from someone who obviously believes his and only his opinion matters?

Based on the writing on his site, I wouldn't hire him for anything. Even if he's a god among programmers, I can hire someone who's 80% as good and causes fewer problems in the workplace, and likely come out ahead due to that.

Re:Still no job? (1)

Hao Wu (652581) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887626)

More companies are deathly confounded by "let's get along" managers who believe teamwork and tolerance are more important than actual good work.

Zed would have railed against the open secrets [blogspot.com] that allowed the tiger escape at the San Francisco zoo, and then he'd have been fired or reprimanded for not being politically and socially correct in his approach.

Re:Still no job? (3, Insightful)

Rakishi (759894) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887716)

More companies are deathly confounded by "let's get along" managers who believe teamwork and tolerance are more important than actual good work.
No they value actual good work, the actual good work of the whole company not of one self-centered asshole. Life is about compromises and being able to deal with people different from you, if you can't deal with that reality then the problem is you not the rest of society.

Zed would have railed against the open secrets that allowed the tiger escape at the San Francisco zoo, and then he'd have been fired or reprimanded for not being politically and socially correct in his approach.
No if he worked for the zoo he'd have been fired for giving public statements when he did not have the authority to (which can and does cause all sorts of problems for a company).

Re:Still no job? (1)

ahodgson (74077) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887838)

(which can and does cause all sorts of problems for a company)

Like people finding out the truth before their children get eaten.

Re:Still no job? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21887790)

What, you don't like profanity laced rants aimed at you and your employees, from someone who obviously believes his and only his opinion matters?

While the profanity is not needed, there is truth between the lines for this whole business. MBA's most often suck, the business has too many in unqualified fingers in I/T (pun intended) that are unqualified, ego driven, hype turkeys, charlatans, bias, stupidity, poorly focused, under qualified but many have the jive talk....

Glad I am retiring from this business in 5 years (or less). There are not enough artisans and craftspeople in this business to hold my interest. And certainly a growing shortage of companies that are safe harbors for those that are and can do.

Re:Still no job? (1)

vertinox (846076) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887810)

What, you don't like profanity laced rants aimed at you and your employees, from someone who obviously believes his and only his opinion matters?

Based on the writing on his site, I wouldn't hire him for anything.


Don't worry. Chances are he'll land a job in upper management before he can do anymore damage as a coder.

Oh wait...

But seriously... His personality type would get reminds of of all the psychotic people who freak out and happen to be in position of power in the company. The problem is that upper management does attract the 1 out of 100 persons who are socio-paths and even though a company should be run by people who don't fly off the handle with potty mouths at the most minor things, it often happens.

Re:Still no job? (1)

RAMMS+EIN (578166) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887818)

I think he has discovered the age-old algorithm:

C
  You shoot yourself in the foot.

  C++
  You accidentally create a dozen instances of yourself and shoot them all in the foot. Providing emergency medical care is impossible since you can't tell which are bitwise copies and which are just pointing at others and saying, "That's me over there."

  FORTRAN
  You shoot yourself in each toe, iteratively, until you run out of toes, then you read in the next foot and repeat. If you run out of bullets, you continue anyway because you have no exception handling ability.

And so on. More at http://howto-pages.org/shootfoot.php [howto-pages.org] (among other places).

Responsibility for one's own words?! (1)

mi (197448) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887908)

He sounds like a real people person. I can't imagine why companies aren't jumping at the chance to hire this guy.

Well, obviously there is a painful need for regulation [slashdot.org] to defend people like him from their saying anything affecting their job prospects.

Because, after all [slashdot.org] :

If you expressed the "wrong" opinion to the wrong person, you may find your career ended, you housing yanked, or your child's chances of college vanish.

It's remarkable that people still do this (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21887314)

With dozens of programming languages emerging every year, how can people still get riled up about any of them? I'm not even saying that people shouldn't argue which is better, but the fervor behind it strikes me as odd, given that there are so many essentially identical options to choose from. Which language you're going to use is often just a matter of installed base and what someone else started a project with. How can anyone be emotional about that anymore?

Re:It's remarkable that people still do this (1)

adamkennedy (121032) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887422)

The high-quality FYIQ (Fuck You I Quit) has a long tradition.

It comes as a function of personal disillusionment stemming from a realisation that the literally YEARS of effort put into something being worthless (in his case, clearly in financial terms).

When people do realise this, they tend to snap over to the opposite position pretty hard.

Definition of Computer Scientist (1)

StCredZero (169093) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887620)

Definition of Computer Scientist - someone with enough knowledge and skills to implement their own computer language.

Definition of Gentleman Computer Scientist - someone with enough knowledge and skills to implement their own computer language, but doesn't.

Re:It's remarkable that people still do this (2, Informative)

RAMMS+EIN (578166) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887656)

``With dozens of programming languages emerging every year, how can people still get riled up about any of them? I'm not even saying that people shouldn't argue which is better, but the fervor behind it strikes me as odd, given that there are so many essentially identical options to choose from.''

I think:

1. Many people like to get excited about things. I've also heard that people let their emotions run more freely online, because the feedback that they would get IRL is missing.

2. Many people get excited about things they _think_ are new and cool, even if these things aren't.

3. Some programming languages actually are worth getting excited about.

4. Compared to mainstream languages, many alternative languages have a lot to offer.

``Which language you're going to use is often just a matter of installed base and what someone else started a project with. How can anyone be emotional about that anymore?''

Just because your hands are tied doesn't mean it doesn't make sense to argue about what the best choice had been if you had had the freedom to choose. In fact, it probably makes such debate more important, because you could win by losing your shackles and choosing a better language anyway, or by doing the _next_ project in a better language.

If anything, I think both industry and academics are holding back progress by being too conservative in their choices of languages, all too often going with what happens to be pushed by commercial vendors and/or used by other people at the moment. For example, the duplication of effort that has gone into making things work in Java that already worked in other programming languages is positively staggering. And as far as I am concerned it has been a huge waste of time and effort, because Java wasn't when this started - and to some extent still isn't - a great language. Don't get me wrong; I think the switch to Java was a leap forward for the industry; I just wish people would have jumped to a better language.

Re:It's remarkable that people still do this (1)

Rakishi (759894) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887822)

If anything, I think both industry and academics are holding back progress by being too conservative in their choices of languages, all too often going with what happens to be pushed by commercial vendors and/or used by other people at the moment. For example, the duplication of effort that has gone into making things work in Java that already worked in other programming languages is positively staggering. And as far as I am concerned it has been a huge waste of time and effort, because Java wasn't when this started - and to some extent still isn't - a great language. Don't get me wrong; I think the switch to Java was a leap forward for the industry; I just wish people would have jumped to a better language.
There are massive costs associated with moving to a new language in any decently sized company, from lack of developers who know it, lack of developers in the company who know it, lack of internal libraries for it, lack of internal company support and so on. So yeah you either get a working product in Java or a half assed product in language X written by people who have no idea how to use language X bad have to remake the wheel 55 thousand times due to lack of pre-existing libraries.

Re:It's remarkable that people still do this (1)

RAMMS+EIN (578166) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887868)

``There are massive costs associated with moving to a new language in any decently sized company, from lack of developers who know it, lack of developers in the company who know it, lack of internal libraries for it, lack of internal company support and so on. So yeah you either get a working product in Java or a half assed product in language X written by people who have no idea how to use language X bad have to remake the wheel 55 thousand times due to lack of pre-existing libraries.'' ...and yet, the world at large managed to move to Java. And PHP. So I really don't think your explanation holds up to scrutiny, sensible as it sounds.

Re:It's remarkable that people still do this (1, Interesting)

AuMatar (183847) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887678)

And despite the myriad of languages

Only 3 are really used for 95% of large apps (C, C++, Java)

Only 2 are used for bare metal apps and 95% of firmware (C, C++)

Only 2 are really used for 90% of scripting (Perl, shell)

Only 3 are used for 99% of web apps (Perl, PHP, JSP)

Notice Python and Ruby aren't in the list- they have a few fanboys and a few apps they can point to and claim people do use them, but in reality they make up less than 1% of apps in active development combined.

And notice there's a hell of a lot of overlap in there. The reality is, language doesn't matter. WHat does matter is availability of decent libraries. And for that, you're better off sticking with a major player. Unless your new language is as big a leap as procedural vs functional or OOP vs procedural, don't bother. The 100 new languages we get each year tend to be the same C++ style language with a few pieces of syntactic sugar on top.

Apparently I'd Agree (3, Insightful)

aftk2 (556992) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887322)

But for the absolute opposite reason: any community that would have this guy as a prominent member and/or mouthpiece is immature indeed.

Addendum (5, Interesting)

aftk2 (556992) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887494)

Gotta give credit where credit is due. This is pretty funny:

Notice how it took me a few seconds to reply. This one single statement basically means that we all got duped. The main Rails application that DHH created required restarting ~400 times/day. That's a production application that can't stay up for more than 4 minutes on average.

Let me put this into perspective for you: I've ran servers that needed to be restarted once in a year. They were written in PHP, Python, Java, C, C++, you name it. Hell, I've got this blog on a server I've restarted maybe 10-20 times the whole year.

Now, DHH tells me that he's got 400 restarts a mother fucking day. That's 1 restart about ever 4 minutes bitches. These restarts went away after I exposed bugs in the GC and Threads which Mentalguy fixed with fastthread (like a Ninja, Mentalguy is awesome).

If anyone had known Rails was that unstable they would have laughed in his face. Think about it further, this means that the creator of Rails in his flagship products could not keep them running for longer than 4 minutes on average.

Repeat that to yourself. "He couldn't keep his own servers running for longer than 4 minutes on average."

Assuming his statements are true (which we may never know) he basically duped us all.

maybe I'm missing something (1, Insightful)

Avohir (889832) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887326)

Is there any particular reason this is relevant information other than the fact that a significant developer is leaving and that he evidently has personal issues with some of the other involved parties? I mean some of it is an entertaining read in much the same way an episode of Jerry Springer is, but is there anything really technical or interesting here?

Waste of time (2, Insightful)

JustShootMe (122551) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887334)

Why did this even make the front page? It had no redeeming value except to prove that "Zed" is a pain to work with and unprofessional.

Re:Waste of time (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21887644)

It had no redeeming value except to prove that "Zed" is a pain to work with and unprofessional.
Utoh. Now the homophobic assclown's going to come kick your ass, cause you know that's important.

Re:Waste of time (1)

Rakishi (759894) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887760)

I'm somehow tempted to believe this was submitted by someone who doesn't like Zed and wants to make sure he never ever gets a job in the future with any half-decent company.

Re:Waste of time (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21887804)

Please remember that Zed was number one on http://www.workingwithrails.com/browse/popular/people [workingwithrails.com] , also a core developer and the creator of mongrel, wich is not just another webserver it's the only server you can actually serve dynamic (as in non cached) rails pages or any other ruby apps. Don't even get me started with that fcgi/scgi crap. It just wasn't going anywhere.
His childish way to put things, makes everyone focus on him rather on some of the flaws (such as the ';' delimited routes mistake, the huge number server restarts DHH was claiming to have) he describes.
But in the end, let's forget about rails, scaling. His post is about frustration, not necessarly ruby on rails, but about open source. Working on open source projects is a tough way to make a living, and rails is not popular, it's just hyped up...

CIA? (1)

BigHungryJoe (737554) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887364)

If you tell me that your social network will take on facebook because it includes baby pictures then I'm going to laugh in your face. They are an established player with CIA backing.

Any real evidence of this, or is this his imagination?

Re:CIA? (3, Interesting)

LWATCDR (28044) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887530)

Sure there is proof. Facebook's main function is to get something on everybody. You are posting your life on Facebook and all your friends.
Actually there seems to be some very tenuous connections as far as venture capital for Facebook and the CIA. I think it is more Tinfoil hat stuff than real but I could be wrong.
Social networking sites could be of interest to law enforcement agencies. If someone has committed a crime or is on the run they will often turn to friends or friends of friends for help. If the police are looking for anyone the first thing they will do is contact the person friends, family, and co-workers. Social networking sites soft of put them all out there for the world to see. The scary thing is that they tend to be some pretty distant links on your friends links.
On guy that I added as a friend I had one class in eleventh grade with. I haven't seen him since but he found me so I added him.
So I just kind of doubt that the CIA is really backing Facebook but I don't doubt that they have an interest in it.

Re:CIA? (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21887878)

In testimony before the House Homeland Security Subcommittee on Intelligence, Information Sharing, and Terrorism Risk Assessment,"Use of the Internet by Terrorists: Using the Web as a Weapon", November 6, 2007, there was this surprising testimony:

Jane Harman: "What can we do to go on the offensive? Are we doing enough to create false websites? And then try to track people, extemists, who try to go on those sites? Are we doing any of that? Create problems for them, if they go on these sites, they may not be authentic, and turn the internet into a less reliable source of information. Is there anything we're doing there?"

Ms Katz, attorney, Homeland Security Subcommittee on Intelligence, Information Sharing, and Terrorism Risk: "There are easy ways to manipulate popular websites and [myspace] profiles, and our govt agencies are doing that, moving certain videos up in the [google video and youtube] rankings, and lowering the ranking. We're also seeing a lot of sites that are deisgned to make fun of these sites, and bringing humor to it. We're seeing an awful lot of arabic humor designed to discredit Some of this. Some of it I suspect is being done through governmental agencies, some of it is done through talented teens who think its funny. A lot of this information is tracked and is being held by the social networks, youtube, mysapce, facebook, all of them collect the IP address of every comment and everything posted, and retain it for at least 3 months, to turn over to law enforcement. We can let our young people know they are being manipulated, and do more of that."

Re:CIA? (1)

turing_m (1030530) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887888)

I found this:

http://www.commongroundcommonsense.org/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t34949.html [commongrou...nsense.org]

Would an intelligence agency want to control a site where its users are encouraged to divulge a laundry list of dirt that can later be used to track/blackmail/embarrass when said users are older, wiser and more useful/dangerous. Do they have the money and the motivation?

Standard Disclaimer: Of course, only a whackjob conspiracy theorist would think that an Intelligence Agency with a large budget might, you know, actually collect intelligence, and furthermore, do it surreptitiously. That's crazy talk!

Whose chopper is this? (5, Funny)

reverseengineer (580922) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887368)

It is part of my grand exit strategy from the Ruby and Rails community.

Zed's dead, baby. Zed's dead.

Emo programmer angst, film at 11 (1)

Malk-a-mite (134774) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887374)

... really if i wanted to read crud like that I could sign up for a livejournal or myspace account.

A few interesting bits, but mostly ego stroking (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21887388)

I read this a day or two ago, and while a few tidbits are interesting (the bit about the 400 daily restarts, for example), the rant is largely "Hey I'm so awesome and these people don't even realize it!" Basically, this guy, while apparently pretty intelligent, is also a giant douchebag. What pains me most is he seems to wear the douchebag title as a point of pride when in reality he should be ashamed to be such a bad person.

Slow news day? (4, Funny)

shawnmchorse (442605) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887390)

I actually started to read TFA, but discovered that it appears to just be a bunch of high school drama. Or something.

Holy Cow! (3, Insightful)

RAMMS+EIN (578166) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887412)

Holy cow! I started reading TFA with the idea that there would be some good points in there, but never got to them. What a load of verbal abuse! Excuse me, but I don't fancy reading through that.

I understand that things have really hurt this guy and made him angry, but I don't think this is the way to go about improving things. It may be a good way for him to vent his frustration, but I would say that if you want people to take you seriously, it's better to write down your criticism in a civil manner, with examples of what you are criticizing and, for even better results, suggestions for how to improve things.

A long rant that slings abuse at everything and everyone is bound to just hurt people, and that's rarely if ever a Good Thing. As for me, I won't be reading the article any further, so that's _one_ initially interested reader he has lost. And I'm sure I'm not alone.

confused (1)

stewbacca (1033764) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887420)

I'm confused. Is this an attempt to knock down Ruby or Rails (Two things I know next to nothing about)? Because if it is, this is the worst argument against anything I've ever read.

Re:confused (1)

RAMMS+EIN (578166) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887490)

``I'm confused. Is this an attempt to knock down Ruby or Rails (Two things I know next to nothing about)? Because if it is, this is the worst argument against anything I've ever read.''

And now, watch the anti-Ruby and anti-Rails trolls jump on the opportunity to claim that "see! I was right all along!!"

What a douche (2, Informative)

LanMan04 (790429) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887496)

I just read about 3/4 of his rant and 90% of it is his bitching about not having his ego stroked at every opportunity.

I hope this guy is a millionaire, because he certainly talks with the arrogance of one and I doubt he'll have much community respect after this (assuming anyone knows who he is). Sounds like "I didn't make my fortune during the .com boom but I deserved to" sour grapes.

That guy must have a HUGE ego...and looking at his douchey picture on his blog, he thinks he's major hot shit.

Guess what buddy? You should be the new poster boy of

Re:What a douche (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21887712)

He's a rails guy, of course he has a huge ego. They all do, have you not noticed?

autoconf comment... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21887552)

Why is this ghetto? Any experienced developer knows that autoconf configure files are a PAIN IN THE ASS to recreate. They almost always require special reconfigure calls, special m4 macros, or just time. You usually get them right, generate them once, and then leave them in your repository for all to use.
that's strange, I just run autoreconf...

Zed Shaw: A master at self parody (5, Insightful)

greg_barton (5551) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887556)

I'd never heard of Zed Shaw before this story, but he will now be who I think of when the words "self" and "parody" are juxtaposed in my mind. To wit:

This means that thanks to Larry Flynt I can stab them in the ear verbally, insult them, question their sexual orientation, and say anything that's true and they just have to take it. Their only recourse is to write their pathetic little rebuttals in their stupid little blogs.

Obligatory pot/kettle/black reference.

I'll add one more thing to the people reading this: I mean business when I say I'll take anyone on who wants to fight me. You think you can take me, I'll pay to rent a boxing ring and beat your fucking ass legally.

O....K.... I think that stands by itself.

But wait! There's more...

I've been thinking this over ever since I realized that Mongrel and Rails more or less killed my career.

No, I believe you're doing that...right now...

Before Mongrel I was building kick ass software for the NYC Dept. of Correction with a tiny team.

And, based on the "beat your fucking ass" statements above, he'll be utilizing that software as a client at some point.

After Mongrel I couldn't get a gang of monkeys to rape me, so forget any jobs.

Seriously, based on reading only a portion of his post, I wouldn't hire this man even if he was a coding god. I don't think his woes are due to his previous co-workers. Textbook example of a serious attitude problem.

Re:Zed Shaw: A master at self parody (1)

JustShootMe (122551) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887572)

I agree. I've been known in the past to do some stupid things as far as blogs and stuff go. I don't do them anymore. This guy doesn't appear to have learned that lesson.

Re:Zed Shaw: A master at self parody (1)

mortonda (5175) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887632)

I'd never heard of Zed Shaw before this story,
Zed is responsible for the webserver mongrel which is now at the heart of rails dispatching. Most deployments use mongrel, maybe with a load balancer in front of it.

It is actually a very good bit of work - if it wasn't for the attitude evident in this rant, I would think Zed would be an extremely good asset for any company.

Zed's So Fucking Awesome (4, Insightful)

Serious Callers Only (1022605) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887558)

I'll add one more thing to the people reading this: I mean business when I say I'll take anyone on who wants to fight me. You think you can take me, I'll pay to rent a boxing ring and beat your fucking ass legally. Remember that I've studied enough martial arts to be deadly even though I'm old, and I don't give a fuck if I kick your mother fucking ass or you kick mine. You don't like what I've said, then write something in reply but fuck you if you think you're gonna talk to me like you can hurt me.

Over and over again I'd run into these morons who would offer me tiny jobs, no jobs, insult my intelligence, treat me like all I can do is code, and when I didn't fit that mold or wanted to charge them for the privilege they'd cheat me or laugh at me.

Google was a total riot. They offered me a job twice. I went with it, and they never responded. Probably because the job they were offering me--someone who's been coding for 21 years, 15 professionally--was as a junior system administrator. What the hell does a junior sysadmin do at google? That's probably like mopping the floor at a glory hole in Queens. I told them to review my resume and offer me a real position.


Perhaps Google read a few paragraphs of Zed's So Fucking Awesome and thought better of asking him to do anything at all. I feel sorry for this guy now because this one post will do more to ruin his career than any minor tantrum in front of a few people (a few of which he describes here). I hear dreamhost [dreamhost.com] is hiring though; his weblog reminds me of theirs.

L4MER NET Social! (1)

gnutoo (1154137) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887568)

I'm starting a new social network for people with lame ideas. Does anyone know where I can get some good technical advice that won't cost much? I'm sure there's a pile of money for me when it's done!

Make the bad man stop (2, Insightful)

JCSoRocks (1142053) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887576)

Maybe I'm confused. I thought the little motto up top said "News for Nerds. Stuff that MATTERS." Who cares about this? This is garbage. The article is just like a recap of a bad network teen drama + expletives. Can we get some real news back on the front page please? thanks!

Not trolling, just asking people to stop putting this kind of junk up front. It's a waste of everyone's time.

Re:Make the bad man stop (5, Insightful)

Henriok (6762) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887876)

Maybe I'm confused. I thought the little motto up top said "News for Nerds. Stuff that MATTERS." Who cares about this?

I care. Not so much in the context of Rails, Ruby or Mongrel, but in the context of being an employee in the IT business. Working in teams, working with excentric individuals, stupid bosses, geniuses, hacks, nice but incompetent, obnoxious but blazingly creative, hard working average joes, brilliant slackers. All this is what we all meet every day. It's great to hear these stories, since we all can relate to them, pehaps come to terms with our own failings and forgive the failings in others.

I feel for Zed, I really do. It seems to me that he's one guy who've been screwed one too many times, and breaking down is just too common under such circumstances. People skills, yeah. He might not have them, but reading a story like this makes me more proficient in that department. So.. I think it matters. It matters a lot. To me. To us all.

More fo this to come! (1)

n1_111 (597775) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887582)

Linux is next :)

Macho, macho man..... (1)

RageOfReason (1003903) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887584)

I'll never be afraid of some pilsner fresh fat fuck who eats donut hamburgers and only gets exercise when he plays World of Warcraft on a DDR pad

Well at least he's refreshingly specific in his hatred.
Zed, please don't beat me up; I'm a vegetarian and wear glasses. What's a DDR pad?

Re:Macho, macho man..... (1)

mapsjanhere (1130359) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887686)

Dance Dance Revolution - an arcade game where you have to move your feet to some blinking lights. And don't ask how a 40s some 250 lbs guy knows that ...

Re:Macho, macho man..... (1)

KermodeBear (738243) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887728)

I believe it is a reference to Dance Dance Revolution [wikipedia.org] .

Wow (5, Insightful)

andawyr (212118) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887596)

That is truly one bitter individual.

I mean, there's such a thing as burning bridges, but he's taken it to the next level. I know for a fact that if I ever received a resume from such an individual, it would go straight into the trash.

As far as I'm concerned, interpersonal skills count for a lot - even if your a genius, in a real environment you'll have to function as part of a team. This guy, well, it seems that he has real difficulties in a team environment. Sure, he may have worked with some individuals that were not up to his standards (would anyone be?), but to say what he said...it's too much.

Good riddance to him.

My favorite part is when he doesn't get it.. (3, Insightful)

synthesizerpatel (1210598) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887604)

The manager who dresses him down saying he can't code, then comes back later and claims he meant someone else. Since he's obviously too busy being angry he completely missed that the manager backtracked to try and protect himself from any lawsuits.

What a crappy outburst. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21887612)

Rails really is a ghetto full of PHPtards that write horrible software. Too bad this rant had absolutely nothing to do with that, and was just a bunch of whining about not having a job and people calling each other names in IRC.

Another reason to stay off the Rails (1)

ubikkibu (544498) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887634)

Apparently their "bigwig developers" are puerile hackers with little experience but huge chips on their shoulders. At least this one is.

It's really more of a case study in "how to get your blog flames noticed" than anything else.

You've got to be kidding me. (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21887636)

Offering to kick people's ass and bragging about his martial arts prowess, with extra points for claiming to be deadly? What is this, Fidonet?

Depressing.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21887638)

For some reason.. reading this makes me depressed.

Zed Who? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21887658)

In case you don't know Zed is the guy who did Mongrel. A (the only?) decent web container for rails.

Way back in '06 while suffering through getting a stable Rails deployment Mongrel came to the rescue. Sure you had to start dozens of them, but at least they friggen worked. I got a good vibe off of the mongrel project while reading the docs because he admitted to basing the whole thing on a Java web container.

Zed might be a bit of a dick, but he's pretty right on about a lot of the RoR community. I though the Java guys were arrogant asses back in the dot com days, but the RoR geeks are far worse.

What A Maroon! (3, Insightful)

MightyMartian (840721) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887690)

My favorite part is where he brags about having a business degree, except that prior to that he admitted to being homeless for a big chunk of the year.

This is a classic case of a loser blaming everyone else for his problems. If this idiot didn't know that the world is populated by shitty little startups with no money and big ol' mean corporations that don't pay invoices for 6 weeks then he definitely got into the wrong business.

Blaming a coding environment for your financial woes is like blaming your car because the subway runs late.

Re:What A Maroon! (1)

Actually, I do RTFA (1058596) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887830)

My favorite part is where he brags about having a business degree, except that prior to that he admitted to being homeless for a big chunk of the year.

Or not knowing that Net-30 is standard. Or the last few paragraphs when he confuses fixed and marginal costs and then claims that companies that charge by billable hours would make more money if they got done with projects sooner.

I don't know why I wasted my time reading that, but I suppose the shudenfradue was too great.

Trailer trash commentary (2)

cjonslashdot (904508) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887708)

After skimming past a few paragraphs and seeing the level of his discourse, I had no confidence in his credibility and stopped reading.

Fear his descrucity! (1)

SoundGuyNoise (864550) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887720)

This guy's rants are right up there on par with the Ultimate Warrior. http://www.ultimatewarrior.com/ [ultimatewarrior.com]

Should have taken the Google Job. (2)

gnutoo (1154137) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887742)

Google was a total riot. They offered me a job twice. I went with it, and they never responded. Probably because the job they were offering mesomeone whos been coding for 21 years, 15 professionallywas as a junior system administrator. What the hell does a junior sysadmin do at google? Thats probably like mopping the floor at a glory hole in Queens. I told them to review my resume and offer me a real position.

As he ponders his rent, he might realize that Junior Sysadmin at Google pays more than massuse [chicagoblackhawks.com] or spooge-mopper. They get to write cool code on the side too, so he could do some more fun things with criminal records or fingerprints if he wanted to. Who knows, he might have impressed the boss with his skilz and moved up the ladder. If not, Google could have rented the coliseum in Rome for a grudge match to the death.

When a good company offers you a job with good money, the answer is "when can I start?"

Ruby made him homeless! (1)

Evets (629327) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887756)

I've been thinking this over ever since I realized that Mongrel and Rails more or less killed my career. During 2006 I was effectively homeless for about 4-6 months out of the year and made no money at all.


So after 6 months of homeless living, he continued to work on the project for another year and a half? That's dedication. I always thought people were giving those guys money for charity on the freeway. I had no idea you could trade them hamburgers for software development.

It's a pretty big accomplishment for Ruby to push a guy into homelessness too. Think about all the WoW guys out there just playing a video game day in and day out. Those guys all have homes. I can't think of another product that will push people out into the street. Kazaa with all the RIAA's assistance hasn't even done that yet. I suppose that makes it a feature.

oh no! Er wait... (1)

carlivar (119811) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887786)

I read the slashdot summary and thought to myself "Oh no! Mongrel is a very well-respected and popular component of many Rails apps. This is a huge loss to the RoR community!".

Then I read his post (and had flashbacks to 8th Grade).

Let's just say I am no longer concerned in the slightest.

I love it when I get touched like that (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21887792)

It makes my rail turn ruby red! ::waits for a mod to squander their modpoints on an AC post::

Man... for what is worth... (1)

alexborges (313924) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887828)

Ive been using RoR for the past couple of months for a pet project of mine. no large loads or anything, just a portal with some SOAP to another portal and simple things like that.

ROR ROCKS as a platform, although i do agree that its performance isnt as stable as the one found on java servers, but i do think that the whole idea makes up for that fact. Ror is so simple to program, so cheap to program for, that youll be able to afford a litle 4 box cluster for it and come up way ahead. I like teh ror.

Now, this guy made mongrel, which did become a key piece of a production/stable RoR deployment. Hes good, no use in denying that.

He is also very socially challenged, its sad that he blames his inability to find a job to his own (great) work on RoR. Maybe when you say to the HR guy that you are god, that if they hire you is in that condition, then you may get the cold shoulder: noone likes a brager. Not even Russel Cocker (to think of a wonder-consultant extraordinaire) is that cocky. Hell, he aint cocky at all and he made a great consultant's howto for IT professionals which i recommend to this angry blogger.

Guess It Is Back To Lighttpd + FastCGI (4, Interesting)

aldheorte (162967) | more than 6 years ago | (#21887848)

Interestingly, the Rails community had started to 'normalize' on a framework of Apache + Mongrel in the last year or so. Some of this may have had to do with comments by the author of this article and Mongrel that lighttpd sucked (apparently because the lighttpd developers were not keeping modproxy up to date enough for him, which may or not be true - remember that Mongrel only works well to the extent that the web server proxy implementation works well as well).

Prior to this, lighttpd and fastcgi had been favored. With that guy's attitude, I suspect that Mongrel is quickly going to fall out of favor. Hell, with that outburst, I think people should be rightly concerned about using and updating Mongrel as a matter of due diligence.

The major point here is that alternatives exist and we of the lighttpd and fastcgi persuasion would like more fellows to build brain share. We promise not to swear at you quite as much.

gang of monkeys (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 6 years ago | (#21887850)

After Mongrel I couldn't get a gang of monkeys to rape me, so forget any jobs.
Probably wasn't trying hard enough...
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