Oracle Shells Out $1B To Buy ATG 109
wiredmikey writes "Oracle announced this morning that it would pay $1.0 Billion in cash to acquire ATG, a provider of high-end e-commerce software."
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Oracle Shells Out $1B To Buy ATG
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He has not acquired a fortune; the fortune has acquired him. -- Bion
Firsrt question (Score:3, Insightful)
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I'm not sure, but I imagine that if they paid $1 billion (mwahahaha), ATGs patent portfolio is extensive.
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What clients do they have? Migrate them to Oracle!
Re:Firsrt question (Score:5, Interesting)
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And, then once you're in the door with Oracle for the eCommerce stuff, you try to get Oracle into the rest of the company.
Then the real money starts, what with the sun hardware and support contracts and all.
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And, then once you're in the door with Oracle for the eCommerce stuff, you try to get Oracle into the rest of the company.
Then the real money starts, what with the sun hardware and support contracts and all.
You mean like "The next release of the ecommerce suite runs on Oracle/Weblogic app server only".
Re:Firsrt question (Score:4, Insightful)
Exactly. I can guarantee that Oracle will change that software to require Oracle. That's what companies that grow through acquisition do, is move the existing customer base to use their product.
And, then once you've made them buy an Oracle for the eCommerce app, you might as well buy one for the rest of your enterprise data. And you're gonna need equipment and a maintenance agreement -- you always need a maintenance agreement.
Before long, your enterprise runs on Oracle, you have a maintenance agreement for each machine doing it -- oh, and since it's Oracle you need 3x the hardware to do what you used to do before since there is a small fleet of machines needed to support Oracle's solutions. Especially now that they are the hardware vendor.
Me, I can see some of the users of this software being on the hook for tens of millions of dollars each year once the Oracle licensing machine is through with them. Oracle will try to bleed them dry as much as they can manage.
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There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
And I thought I was so clever getting out of jury duty. Fuck, now I have to wait another 6 six years before I start shooting!
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A big solid object hurling at Earth sounds about as disruptive to society as this patent system.
+1 Accidentally Insightful.
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Here's the list of patents acquired: (Score:5, Informative)
http://en.swpat.org/wiki/Oracle#ATG_patents_acquired [swpat.org]
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When I mouse over your logo in the top left corner, the background image is replaced with a grey box of the same size. Checked in Chromium and Firefox on Ubuntu 10.10 and IE 8 on Windows. I say this to you as you seem quite heavily involved with the site.
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Maybe someone can help with that css problem.
Thing is, I want text-links in the articles to have a grey background when someone hovers the mouse over them, but the only way I know to do this is by having all link-things turn fully grey backgrounded whenever the mouse is over them.
The image in the top left is part of a big link area, so the whole link area turns grey.
It irritates me too. Anyone know the html/css magic needed?
The current css is at:
http://en.swpat.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Common.css [swpat.org]
(Normal users ca
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For a start, if you're using CSS, why is the logo background specified in the html doc?
a style="background-image: url(/images/swpat-logo.png);" href="/wiki/Software_patents_wiki:_home_page" title="Visit the main page"
refer to that link by the id of the element above, or give it a class/id, and set the background image in CSS, so that all your styling is in one place. Anyway, I imagine something like
#p-logo a:hover {background-image: url(/images/swpat-logo.png);}
would work for you, or (better), set the hover
fixed, thanks. (Score:2)
Got it. Here's what worked:
#p-logo a:hover {background: none; background-repeat: no-repeat;}
The HTML is generated by Mediawiki, so I can't change that without patching the code (and the sys admins wouldn't be too happy with having to maintain a patch for each upgrade).
Thanks. (and also to the anonymous poster just below.)
Re:Here's the list of patents acquired: (Score:5, Insightful)
All mainly software patents, by the look of it, and generic ones at that. A 1999 patent for pushing session-state information to a backup server, to a 2001 patent for an embedded web link in a document. All crap, by the look of it, and a lot of them only filed (not issued) and all of them pretty much of the "patent bandwagon" type (i.e. "John patented a web link last week, let's see if we can patent something just as obvious and well-used!"). There's even one there for shipping out a customer's order in a different order for efficiency. Let's patent using a lever to reduce work next!
I don't see anything that holds much clout, but they are likely to have some Java patents, or at least something along those lines.
Sorry Oracle, your recent actions make me extremely suspicious and I don't even *try* to think it might be an innocent purchase any more. See what destroying reputations does? (and, really, I'm not sorry for Oracle at all).
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But, be honest ....
Do you think Oracle is in the least bit perturbed by either your suspicion or that you don't "feel sorry for them"? Even a little? Or do you figure they're just lighting cigars with $100 bills and laughing?
Oracle will make lots of money. Larry Ellison will continue t
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Do they care about me? Nope. I'm just a guy. Do they care about the OO.org community? Nope, it's just some guys. Eventually, though, it filters back to something they *DO* care about - they used to have a reputation among the people I speak to of high-end, quality database infrastructure. Now they have a reputation of destroying perfectly good and harmless open source products that people use every day (e.g. MySQL, Java, etc.).
Do they care about me? Nope. Do I care about them? Nope. Do I care that
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Sadly, I agree with everything you said.
Except I fear that they will not end up taking any significant hit -- either financially, or in their reputation.
At which point, they will continue with business as usual, and nothing will change.
Depressing, isn't it?
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Depressing [blogspot.com], isn't it?
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Look at their customer list at www.atg.com Fortune 10 and Fortune 500.
Oracle will be able to supply enterprise solutions from the power connection to the end user. No finger pointing. Just like IBM did in the 60s.
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ATG were major innovators in using Java to power web applications. They created their weird droplet things long before J2EE and servlets, JSP etc became widely usable. It doesn't surprise me a bit that they have patents for web based technologies that seem simple/commonplace to us now.
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Oh please. There's nothing novel in JSP or servlets. It's all just re-invention of old ideas around the new protocol/language. JSP is just templating/macros, invented a million times over. Servlets are just a pool to avoid starting a new process. Truly, there's nothing new here, though no doubt some crap patents were issued.
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If you're going to disagree with me, at least say something intelligent. And address the things I actually said:
1. They innovated in using Java for websites. Remember Java, those applets for NCs?
2. They did it before JSP became widely usable.
The Romans didn't invent (or even understand) arches, but they innovated a lot of aquaducts into existence nonetheless.
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They innovated in using Java for websites. Remember Java, those applets for NCs?
Perhaps you can explain what, exacty, ATG did that was so special in the applet arena. You've mentioned servlets and JSPs as following technologies, and that is what I addressed.
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Sorry Oracle, your recent actions make me extremely suspicious and I don't even *try* to think it might be an innocent purchase any more. See what destroying reputations does?
Too funny. Did Oracle have a reputation to destroy? They've always been a hardball, corporate cutthroat. If you buy Oracle, you do so because you feel like you have to, not out of some warm fuzzies.
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Let's patent using a lever to reduce work next!
Actually, I'd pay a lot of money for a patent on a lever that reduces work. Normal levers just reduce *force*. :)
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My first question is: What OS projects are "driven" by ATG?
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I'm betting none. From TFA ...
This is a commercial entity which sells eCommerce software to other commercial entities.
Sometimes, the story has nothing to do with Open Source. This is one of them. So, feel free to get on with y
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ATG Dynamo (Score:2)
ATG used to have their own J2EE Application Server, so presumably their "high end e-commerce software" is based on J2EE (or JEE) technology so that Oracle has more products to sell.
I learned about them about 5 years ago - a job offer read "ATG Dynamo developer" and I had to explain the guys they better started looking for J2EE developers instead...
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ATG was a really hot technology ten years ago... does anyone know if it's been used for much since?
I still occasionally get a call for it -- I've since taken it off my resume, since I retain almost nothing of how to use it at this point -- but it's rare.
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Re:Firsrt question (Score:5, Informative)
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Technically that's two questions.
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Actually it is just one question, followed by a nonsense sentence that happens to end with a question mark.
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Wait what? They want to moe [wikipedia.org]terise a software company?
Back (Score:2, Interesting)
Back where, the 19th century? or better yet the 17th century?
Back to 2008 spending levels.
Huh, doesn't sound quite so insane when you put it that way. I wonder where you get your information from...
Just because there are a few wackos at some Tea Party events does not mean that most of the people are not there for the core message of fiscal prudence and smaller government - a smaller government is naturally less corrupt, having less power attracts fewer monied predators.
You'd think, posting from Moscow, you
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The problem is that a smaller government will be left powerless in the face of the multi-national mega corps that are paying out the ass to fund the tea party. The party and the ideas they propose are just pawns of a larger movement in class warfare by the owner class to sacrifice the American way of life to bump up next quarters profits and buy a new jet to fly over the shattered remnants of a once great nation.
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Citation needed.
Re:Back (Score:4, Insightful)
Citation for what?
Tea party direct funding? it is a matter of public record.
Attack advertising against tea party opponents payed for by shadow corporations? Sorry, thanks to recent supreme court cases, they no longer have to disclose that info.
Warfare for profit waged by the ultra rich against the middle class and poor? Sorry, to much information for me to cite, you just have to research it yourself.
The wealthy are growing wealthier while the middle class and poor are becoming poorer. When a FOX news pundit accuses someone of practicing class warfare, what they really mean is someone dared to resist the war waged against the American people. Jobs are slashed to boost quarterly net profit to manipulate stock prices. Fewer jobs for average people while corporations are more profitable than ever.
I am an American patriot. I am sick and tired of my country going to hell so someone that doesn't have to work can become even wealthier at my expense by sacrificing the future of the country I love for temporary boost in profit.
Republicans/tea party/democrats/libertarians are all a part of the problem, some more than others. I am not proposing a grand conspiracy, but rather a systematic flaw in the system that is creating a feedback loop that will eventually lead us to ruin.
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If tl;dr - the take home message is that we're going the way of every complex human civilization so far - a downhill slope caused by a number of causes, but basically we need a new energy source that is really too cheap to meter. Otherwise we're in for a rather bumpy ride.
Nothing really to do with Fox, the Tea Party or the Village Idiot of the Month (I'm lookin at YOU, Sarah).
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He's asking for a citation for your assertion that a small, limited government is more susceptible to corruption, than a large, powerful one.
Opportunism not ideology (Score:2)
Ideology has nothing at all to do with it and the "patriot" angle is just wrapping up the objectionable in a flag to make it appear less so. They are
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That describes it very well, thank you.
Let's mix in a few metaphors (Score:2)
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The solution is simple. We need a smaller government, because a big government wields too much power, and is too corrupt as a result. However, a small government can't effectively govern a country the size of the USA. Therefore, split up the country into smaller countries.
We need to make the USA look like the EU: lots of smaller countries, mostly sovereign, but having free trade and sharing a common currency, and cooperating on defense. Sort of like what the USA looked like before the Civil War. In add
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_I_ know you're joking, but to the moderators:
We have these things called States, and a Constitution that limits the Federal Government's powers, leaving all else to the States.
The only thing they agree on is you shouldn't be able to drive in TX if you owe parking fines in NH. Yay.
BTW, U.S. wouldn't be as powerful as it is in relation to the rest of the world if it were only a bunch of inward looking states. See: Eurasia
Carry on.
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I'm not joking at all.
The Constitution does not limit the Federal Government's powers. That's why we have Federal healthcare laws, federal safety laws, and on and on. There's one Amendment in the Constitution that limits the Federal government's powers, and that clause is simply ignored or misinterpreted (like many other parts of the Constitution), and has been for over 100 years now. The States have very little power, and don't even do much of their own taxation; citizens pay the bulk of their taxes to
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"some countries have socialized healthcare (France, UK, etc.), some don't (eastern European countries probably)."
Even they do. They ACTUALLY HAD SOCIALISM until 1989. That includes healthcare and free higher education. And these weren't dismantled. (I'm not sure of Bulgaria, as it has really low taxes now.)
The funny thing, that in Hungary it was the Hungarian Socialist Party* (MSZP) that wanted to privatese health care and higher education. (And the so called "right wing" was that resisted it). No wonder th
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Even they do. They ACTUALLY HAD SOCIALISM until 1989.
Yes, I realize that, but not all socialisms are the same. The form they had didn't work out too well, resulted in a terrible economy, and finally collapsed. I don't know for sure, but I don't believe they still have all the governmental social services now in the eastern countries now that they used to. The economies in many of those countries still isn't that great, and they might not be able to afford it.
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They're still doing public healthcare:
http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/Healthcareabroad/countryguide/Pages/healthcareinBulgaria.aspx [www.nhs.uk]
http://www.europe-cities.com/en/633/hungary/health/ [europe-cities.com]
http://www.europe-cities.com/en/633/slovakia/health/ [europe-cities.com]
http://www.europe-cities.com/en/633/estonia/health/ [europe-cities.com]
http://www.europe-cities.com/en/633/czech_republic/health/ [europe-cities.com]
http://www.europe-cities.com/en/633/poland/health/ [europe-cities.com]
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Don't be fatalistic. Some governments are far more corrupt than others. Look at Mexico; their government isn't any larger than the USA's (probably a lot smaller actually), but it's one of the most corrupt in the whole world.
Then there's governments like in countries such as Sweden and Switzerland. I'm sure there's some corruption there too, but it's nothing like that of Mexico, India, Zimbabwe, or the USA, and as a result, those two countries lead the world in standard of living.
Which would you rather li
Rendered powerless already by that force (Score:2)
The problem is that a smaller government will be left powerless in the face of the multi-national mega corps that are paying out the ass to fund the tea party.
You mean like Obama being heavily funded by companies like BP?
The government is already heavily influenced by corporations, in all parties, at all levels. The only way to reduce LEGAL corruption (really just influence if you don't want to use a scary term) of this sort is smaller government which then cannot have as much effect on YOUR life through
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Maybe they'll do as good a job on this one as they did on Sun. ATG have anything truly fun with massive potential? Hope not, cuz it's about to get pissed on.
But there's the great job they did with MySQL [theregister.co.uk] ... oh wait
The Bad news is .... (Score:2)
Why would they buy Andre the Giant? (Score:4, Funny)
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Its Obvious!
Oracle wants to be the Brute Squad.
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Is this their new database code name?
They only bought Andre the Giant because they wanted to get their hands on his posse.
Brand value. (Score:4, Insightful)
By combining forces, Oracle and ATG expect to help businesses grow revenue, strengthen customer loyalty, improve brand value, achieve better operating results, and increase business agility across online and traditional commerce environments...
I just wish they cared this much for the Open Office brand. Oh, wait that doesn't make money for Mr. Shareholder. Too bad.
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Using ATG in 1998... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Using ATG in 1998... (Score:4, Interesting)
I think that was the party that took place in New Orleans...
Ah, yes. Around 2000 or 2001, my then-employer rewarded some overtime by sending me to New Orleans for the "ATG Open"... ATG's version of Java One. ATG hired a hundred or so jazz musicians to stand around the hallways of the hotel playing music all day. They hired a few dozen more people to dress up as the company mascot (a square with a dot in the center), just to stand around the hallways for the hell of it waving to everyone. Free booze was everywhere, and at night the hotel conference rooms were turned into dance parties with half-naked women suspended from the ceilings in cages.
On the last day, they closed off Bourbon Street for a parade with all the musicians and weird "dot" mascots. That night they rented out the freaking Superdome for a jazz/rock concert, along with carnival rides and a field goal kicking contest (NOTE: Football kickers deserve respect, 25 yards is a LONG way!). On our way out, they gave each attendee hundreds of dollars worth of premium-quality swag... designer pens, football jerseys, and a weekend luggage bag that I still take to the gym today.
I miss the dot-com years.
OFFTOPIC (Score:2)
The first thought that comes to mind is that ATG is the most common start codon in translation of genomic sequences. Symbolism?
Good thing about it.... (Score:4, Insightful)
The good thing about this deal? No OSS community to be driven off....
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I think there is a real corporate culture within Oracle that has a disdain for the idea behind FSF/OSS. And having worked with plenty of authoritative right-wing corporate types that see anything that is 'free' as bad even if it is the best technical solution I know when to suggest using FSF/OSS software and when to just let some narrow minded authoritarian pay more because that is what they are comfortable with.
As I've witnessed the brain-drain at Oracle it has become pretty clear to me that they do have
Re:Good thing about it.... (Score:5, Insightful)
I have been a Sun Partner for nearly 20 years. Those Oracle types managed to break the relationship it without breaking any sweat within less than 12 months.
I don't think it's FOSS that is the problem with Oracle. My guess is more about the sales type. There are hunter and farmers. Oracle is 100% hunter. FOSS guys tend to be farmer
CU, Martin
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But don't you think that is part of what the corporate culture is all about within Oracle? That they view the FOSS model as something to be discarded rather than used as a tool to enable more sales?
When you pick up a hardware company that has put resources into FOSS to foster that line and then toss all of that FOSS to the wind it seems to me that they just don't get it.
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That they view the FOSS model as something to be discarded rather than used as a tool to enable more sales?
That is the very definition of the "hunter model". All that counts is the current deal. The next deal is not a matter of interest right now.
CU, Martin
Buying companies for their software patents? (Score:2)
I am thinking with the current movement against software patents, now isn't the best time to spend a billion dollars trying to acquire them. If court cases eventually overturn all software patents as they should, that money will wind up being a huge waste and a huge loss on Oracle's reports.
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ATG makes over $50 million a year in REVENUE.
They grew by 16% last year.
Even if this growth rate slows (more likely to accelerate as market improves) Oracle will still get a FULL return on their investment in 15 years or so.
That's much better than the 20 P/E ratio that Buffet always swore by and got so rich on.
Oracle is buying a profitable company that produces a commerce package that allows complex transactions, like the poster above mentioned.
ATG also has a customer base of 1000 large Orgs, that are likel
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They made $50 million in the last quarter, not year.
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i bet if i had the money in had i could get it too..
hey give me 1$ and i'll give you 2$.. i bet i can get 50 million given to me..
REVENUE is a very bad metric to use for buying a company.. Profit? earnings? Net-Income.. they are much better numbers to use.
REVENUE only shows cash coming in and nothing about the rest which is exceptionally important.
1 billion dollars (Score:2)
so for a cool billion Ellison got himself a bunch [swpat.org] of generic patents (such as "Flexible order structure", "Method and system for constructing personalized result sets" and "System and method for interfacing and separating formatted content and program code", you get the picture) and he also now is a proud owner of some sort of 'in house' web based IM system and some sort of a rules engine on top of a knowledge base.
Obviously I am not mentioning the 1000 or so clients that ATG supposedly has.
I suppose this i
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Wait, the market cap is just under 1 BN, and Oracle paid 1 BN... so, you're saying that in your expert opinion, the stock price of ATG was overvalued by a factor
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You are right, but it's not about 'google fu', it's about me paying attention to the article, which I actually opened. It does say 50M, but later adds it's for a quarter. That makes more sense then, though market capitalization is still a lousy indicator about the company, what was capitalization of Nortel or GM before their steep declines?
Also, while the revenue is 50M for the last quarter, what's their profit out of that? 50M revenue with profit under 5M, so profit under 20M/year (probably closer to 10M
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According to their 10k, it's around 30M a quarter, and rising over the past several quarters.
Correct, which I mentioned in my first reply :)
This is about getting onto mobile platforms, which ATG is doing quite a bit of. Oracle can use ATG's penetration onto mobile platform e-commerce to sell more of the stack
Next up (Score:3, Insightful)
Oracle is like a plague. It 'captures' companies for their patents, and does pretty much nothing for their products.
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Oracle's plans (Score:1)
My guess is they want to complete the hardware and software stack to complete head on with IBM and SAP.
This is not about patents. (Score:1, Insightful)
This acquisition is definitely not about software patents, it's about further penetrating IBM's hold on the eCommerce market and saturating large enterprises with more Oracle products across the board. I've worked as an IBM WebSphere Commerce architect for many years and Oracle has always tried to fight off these sales. A large eCommerce installation costs anywhere from 200K to 15Mil in just software licenses, let alone the professional services fees which start at 350K for a small implementation. IBM has b
Corporate personhood and slavery (Score:2)
If corporations are indeed equivalent to aggregate persons, then why isn't it considered slavery when one corporation "acquires" another?
Getting ahead of themselves (Score:2)
Oracle should slow down; they haven't even finished digesting and ruining Sun yet.