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Red Hat Uncloaks 'Java Killer': the Ceylon Project

timothy posted more than 3 years ago | from the as-sung-by-the-bad-brains dept.

Java 623

talawahdotnet writes "Gavin King of Red Hat/Hibernate/Seam fame recently unveiled the top secret project that he has been working on over the past two years, a new language and SDK designed to replace Java in the enterprise. The project came out of hiding without much fanfare or publicity at QCon Beijing in a keynote titled 'The Ceylon Project — the next generation of Java language?'"

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623 comments

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Hmm (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35802886)

A late april fools? Why not call it Sencha? Sounds cooler.

Re:Hmm (1)

gameweld (215362) | more than 3 years ago | (#35802910)

Already taken by the javascript "extJS" framework.

Re:Hmm ... nigger (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35803302)

Who seriously gives a fuck? Java is for niggers and that's all there is to know about it.

Speaking of niggers...

Why do niggers always have sex on their minds? Because their pubic hair is on their heads!

What do you call 1,000 niggers buried up to their necks in sand? Afro-turf OR! Not enough sand. Just kidding, jig.

What happens when a black woman gets an abortion? Crime Stoppers sends her a check.

What's the difference between the mama's boy who gets offended at this and a bucket of shit? The bucket! Turns out not knowing your biological father is bad after all, gotta thank yo mama for that sometime. Congrats to her she made you a total wuss who can't handle anything offensive or unpopular. Hurry up and mod it down so you can resolve your inner conflict.

Why do police dogs always lick their asses? To get the taste of nigger out of their mouths.

Why do niggers keep chickens in their yards? To teach their kids how to walk.

What do you call a nigger with a stutter? A co-coon.

Why don't you ever see any black nuns? They only know how to say one word after "mother" and it ain't "superior".

How do you stop five niggers from raping a white woman? Throw 'em a basketball.

If a nigger and a fine resepctable white man run into a tunnel at the same time who comes out first? The fine respectable white man because the nigger had to stop and spraypaint MOTHERFUCKER on the wall.

Why do niggers stink? So the blind can hate them too.

What's the difference between a nigger and a pile of shit? Eventually the shit will turn white and stop stinking.

So this little nigger boy is in the kitchen and his mama is baking (she be bakin' yo yaknowwhatimsayin'? sheet. fo' shizzle mah nucka). He gets a bunch of flour and throws it all over himself and all over his face. He says "look Mama, I be white!" So being the wonderful nigger parent she is she slaps him. He runs to his dad. He says "Dad Dad look, I be a white boy!" and his dad slaps him. Now he's real mad. He runs to his grandma and says "Gramma, I been white for ten minutes and already I hate you niggers!"

What was the only thing missing from the Million Man March? Three miles of chain and an auctioneer.

Why are so many monkeys depressed? They figured out that in millions of years they'll evolve into niggers.

Why do nigger women like to keep their legs open at picnics? Keeps the flies away.

Why do nigger women dye their hair blonde and wear blue contacts? So black men will date them.

What's the difference between nigger pussy and a bowling ball? If you had to, I mean really HAD TO, you could eat the bowling ball.

How long does it take a black woman to take a shit? About 9 months.

Why are niggers getting bigger and stronger? TVs and stereos are getting heavier.

It's the middle of the night. It's really dark. You suddenly wake up. You think you see your TV floating in the air, all by itself. What do you say? DROP IT NIGGER!

How do you tell if a black woman is pregnant? Shove a banana up her pussy and if it comes back out half-eaten she's pregnant.

What does it say on the inside of a nigger's lips? INFLATE TO 30 PSI.

Why don't niggers like to ride motorcycles? Their lips flapping in the wind would beat them senseless.

Why do niggers hate aspirin? It's white, it works, and they're too proud to pick the cotton out of the bottle!

Re:Hmm ... nigger (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35803674)

lol

Ceylon? (2, Funny)

ArcherB (796902) | more than 3 years ago | (#35802904)

Am I the only one who read, "Cylon"?

Do they have a plan?

Re:Ceylon? (3, Funny)

telekon (185072) | more than 3 years ago | (#35802962)

Am I the only one who read, "Cylon"?

Do they have a plan?

The 'Cylon' project requires a meta-cognitive processor, not a VM.

Although, I had a similar experience reading about the 'Dalvik' VM... Wha... the DALEK VM?

Finally, it's Red Hat. They have no Plan. The One True God has no frakking patience for RHEL (and neither do I).

Re:Ceylon? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35803242)

frakking??? Fuck off.

Re:Ceylon? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35803358)

Am I the only one who read, "Cylon"?

Do they have a plan?

The 'Cylon' project requires a meta-cognitive processor, not a VM.

Although, I had a similar experience reading about the 'Dalvik' VM... Wha... the DALEK VM?

Finally, it's Red Hat. They have no Plan. The One True God has no frakking patience for RHEL (and neither do I).

LULZ I saw those shows too so we're all really cool and in the know. whew. my urge to dissolve my shitty personal identity by merging with some kind of group identity is satisfied, for now. let's all validate each other some more okay? this is totally different from what sports fans do. yeah.

Re:Ceylon? (3, Funny)

steveha (103154) | more than 3 years ago | (#35803026)

Am I the only one who read, "Cylon"?

You are not the only one. My first thought was, "I hope they hire Tricia Helfer to advertise this."

steveha

Obligatory (2)

cultiv8 (1660093) | more than 3 years ago | (#35803098)

Do they have a plan?

1. Create awesome programming language that kills Java
2. ???
3. Profit

Re:Obligatory (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35803544)

2 involves destroying the 12 colonies.

Re:Ceylon? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35803186)

lol the Sinhalese nationalist nuts are not going to be happy, they want it to be Sri Lanka

Re:Ceylon? (2)

bluemonq (812827) | more than 3 years ago | (#35803210)

They do, but they'll never reveal it, and hope that we forget about it two or three years down the road.

Re:Ceylon? (4, Interesting)

ronocdh (906309) | more than 3 years ago | (#35803656)

It's a reference to the type of tea [wikipedia.org], as an alternative to Java—tea vs. coffee, get it?

C#/Mono similar? (1)

danbuter (2019760) | more than 3 years ago | (#35802912)

It will be interesting to see if it is very similar to C#/Mono or something fairly different.

Re:C#/Mono similar? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35802938)

If C# didn't kill Java, I don't see how anything else is going to.

Re:C#/Mono similar? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35803002)

Two words: Oracle.

Re:C#/Mono similar? (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35803028)

Two words: Oracle.

What's the second word?

Re:C#/Mono similar? (1)

flatt (513465) | more than 3 years ago | (#35803100)

Java

Re:C#/Mono similar? (3, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35803106)

"FuckingBullshitAss Oracle" is implied whenever somebody says "Oracle".

Re:C#/Mono similar? (4, Funny)

Megaweapon (25185) | more than 3 years ago | (#35803296)

Two words:

Oracle.

What's the second word?

Lawyers.

Re:C#/Mono similar? (2)

tomhudson (43916) | more than 3 years ago | (#35803754)

Two words: Oracle.

What's the second word?

You're not pronouncing it properly. Pronounce the two syllables as two words. "Ora Kill", same as Larry Ellison does.

Re:C#/Mono similar? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35803664)

How so? Do you consider C# as competing in the same space as Java but a vast improvement? There aren't many backers for that thesis. .Net introduced an abstraction layer exactly where it wasn't needed - in the syntax.

Something to watch (1)

fnj (64210) | more than 3 years ago | (#35802914)

Sounds attractive but very ambitious.

Re:Something to watch (4, Interesting)

zill (1690130) | more than 3 years ago | (#35803024)

I personally don't think it's ambitious at all. Their syntax and grammar only differ slightly from regular Java. Plus the fact that they're targeting the JVM means that they only need to patch javac (and javadoc) to make a new language. Despite how humongous the JDK is, the java compiler itself is relatively lean (only 140KLOC).

Re:Something to watch (2, Insightful)

Kagato (116051) | more than 3 years ago | (#35803326)

The selling point to the enterprise is the JDK. If it was all about a better language that develops quicker they could have gone for Ruby years ago. In particular once sun brought JRuby in-house. The issue at hand is the Enterprise wants the bloatware in the J2EE SDK. Those classes and libraries represent a lot of work a developer doesn't have to figure out themselves.

Because Scala, JRuby, Groovy, Clojure ... (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35802916)

aren't enough (damn subject would have dropped the 'h' and that would have made me cry).

We need yet another JVM language to 'kill' Java. Epic. Brilliant.

The other languages were developed much more openly, not dropped like an MS product. Get real, Red Hat.

Re:Because Scala, JRuby, Groovy, Clojure ... (1, Informative)

Kagato (116051) | more than 3 years ago | (#35803336)

Mod up. It's a fair point.

Re:Because Scala, JRuby, Groovy, Clojure ... (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35803430)

No way! Grandparent is missing Jython.

i wish (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35802922)

this is a non-java-based java killer :)

No need to duplicate work (5, Funny)

MrEricSir (398214) | more than 3 years ago | (#35802932)

We already have a Java killer; his name is Larry Ellison.

Re:No need to duplicate work (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35803350)

One Rich Asshole Called Larry Ellison.

Poetic.

Re:No need to duplicate work (0)

causality (777677) | more than 3 years ago | (#35803394)

One Rich Asshole Called Larry Ellison.

Poetic.

Someone should mod this up.

Re:No need to duplicate work (2)

ae1294 (1547521) | more than 3 years ago | (#35803762)

One Rich Asshole Called Larry Ellison.

Poetic.

Someone should mod this up.

I would but Larry Ellison won't let me...

Java killer? (4, Insightful)

PCM2 (4486) | more than 3 years ago | (#35802978)

A "Java killer" that relies on the JVM to run sounds like it's in for an uphill battle.

Writing an SDK from scratch in a homebrewed language that does everything the Java SDK does? Well, good luck anyway.

Re:Java killer? (2)

unity100 (970058) | more than 3 years ago | (#35803000)

Writing an SDK from scratch in a homebrewed language that does everything the Java SDK does? Well, good luck anyway.

why not ? if enough people decide it is a good idea and participate, it may take much shorter than you can imagine.

the open source community now knows open source effort works. linux prevailed, firefox prevailed. people have self esteem and faith now, and know the ways to make it work. now, they will make work, whatever they decide to make it work.

Re:Java killer? (4, Insightful)

PCM2 (4486) | more than 3 years ago | (#35803016)

if enough people decide it is a good idea and participate, it may take much shorter than you can imagine.

Designing and implementing a new programming language that's intended as a direct challenge to Java... by committee... using a distributed development model... "much shorter than I can imagine"? Have you followed the history of Java at all? Or of any language?

linux prevailed, firefox prevailed.

And both were written in a language people already knew.

Re:Java killer? (2)

unity100 (970058) | more than 3 years ago | (#35803082)

linux, firefox were developed during at an era when the open source movement was in development itself. tools, methods, issues, were not known.

now, not only we are mature, but also we have endless number of tools to facilitate distributed development.

yes, indeed, with the variables given, one thing that is certain is that it would be much shorter than before, to develop an entire language, using the distributed development model now.

Re:Java killer? (1)

Tsiangkun (746511) | more than 3 years ago | (#35803274)

Oh yes, that explains the blazing development speed of Perl6

Re:Java killer? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35803450)

Oh yes, that explains the blazing development speed of Perl6

Perl 6 is a case of the exponents overwhelming the proponents (TIMTOWTDI). And every extra way layered upon the last layer of possibly useful, but certainly redundant, ways to do things in Perl, adds to the combinatorial explosion. And BOOM goes the dynamite!

Hopefully Ceylon will focus on finding one or two "best" ways to do all and only what it must do to compete.

And who is to say that just because it now needs a JVM to bootstrap, that it always will? "c" needed assembler to bootstrap itself, but once it "arrived" it became possible to extend itself in native "c". Or perhaps Ceylon development may use a JVM as a development environment, but may also become capable of producing runtime objects that do not require a JVM.

It was only much later in the cycle of that language thread ("c") that exponentiation began to dominate utility, at least in many instances. And that stage we know as C++. And even later, a "stripped down" version, complete with limitations to go along with the complexity pruning. That language was C#...

These opinions are strictly my own, but that is how it looks, looking back across the decades.

Good luck, Ceylon project. Oracle is a Goliath, but perhaps you will turn out to be a "David".

Re:Java killer? (0)

unity100 (970058) | more than 3 years ago | (#35803458)

does it ? i coded in perl 10 years ago. since then, i didnt care for it. i moved on to php. it just means that less people are using and willing to contribute to perl, regardless of its usage in scripting for server-side tasks in linux.

just because you or some others see it as important, does not mean others will too.

Re:Java killer? (1)

theshowmecanuck (703852) | more than 3 years ago | (#35803276)

Designing and implementing a new programming language that's intended as a direct challenge to Java... by committee...

We'll be in framework hell before it even gets through a standards committee.

Re:Java killer? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35803064)

the open source community now knows open source effort works. linux prevailed, firefox prevailed. people have self esteem and faith now, and know the ways to make it work. now, they will make work, whatever they decide to make it work.

Sounds like new age self-help for the linux geek.
You just need enough people wishing for it really hard and the opensource community can make it happen.

Re:Java killer? (2, Interesting)

tomhudson (43916) | more than 3 years ago | (#35803128)

The problem is this doesn't "throw out the things that are flawed in the original java" - quit the contary.

No âoespecialâ types, everything is an object

(and TFA loses additional points for using Microsoft's smart quotes as demonstrated above)

Any experienced c++ programmer will tell you that "classes if necessary, but not necessarily classes" is the way to go. Class explosion is not pretty, and makes for over-complex stupid implementations.

The new assignment operator ":="

Oh look, someone revived the Clipper dBASE compiler / Pascal syntax.

If you REALLY want to fix it, add the things that are missing:

Kill off interfaces (even James Gosling admits that they were probably a mistake), add multiple inheritance.
A c/c++ style macro compiler and #include system

Re:Java killer? (5, Insightful)

cakoose (460295) | more than 3 years ago | (#35803288)

Any experienced c++ programmer will tell you that "classes if necessary, but not necessarily classes" is the way to go. Class explosion is not pretty, and makes for over-complex stupid implementations.

When trying to design a new, clean, high-level programming language, I probably wouldn't pay much attention to C++ rules of thumb.

Making everything behave like an object can make things much cleaner. It all depends on how exactly this is done, but a lot of complexity in Java comes from the fact that primitive types behave differently. C# did a bit better, but there's still the value-vs-class distinction which can trip you up in subtle ways.

Re:Java killer? (1, Insightful)

tomhudson (43916) | more than 3 years ago | (#35803706)

Making everything behave like an object can make things much cleaner

... but a lot of the time, it doesn't - it just results in having to write a bunch more classes because the language is lacking in basic flexibility - no programmer overloading operators, no multiple inheritance, no preprocessor - because the programmer "can't be trusted." Throw in a non-deterministic garbage collector and finalize methods that, if your program is running for months, may only be called when your program finally exits (really really REALLY dumb move there, people) ...

.At least in c++, you're guaranteed that when the stack frame is popped as your object goes out of scope, your destructor is called immediately. Well-behaved, provable programs need to be deterministic. Until the gc is fixed, java by definition is not a well-behaved provable environment.

Re:Java killer? (5, Insightful)

jensend (71114) | more than 3 years ago | (#35803332)

Kill off interfaces (even James Gosling admits that they were probably a mistake), add multiple inheritance.

*citation needed*
Everything I've seen from Gosling says that pure interfaces are the way to go- even to the extent of getting rid of regular inheritance; see these quips [blogspot.com] . I don't think anybody who's seriously looking at language design thinks C++- style multiple inheritance is a good idea. Nor does anyone want to resurrect the braindead C preprocessor way of dealing with things.

And what's so bad about :=? The fact that some outmoded languages used it doesn't make it a bad idea. Most of us are familiar with its use as a definition or assignment, and avoiding confusions between = and == could be a plus, especially if (as he seems to propose) the latter is extended to replace use of .equals().

lvalue on the right (1)

Compaqt (1758360) | more than 3 years ago | (#35803552)

The thing with the confusion about equality vs. assignment operator is a valid concern, but the := operator doesn't really appeal to me (initially).

Because the bugs associated with mistakenly using = vs. ==, I always put the constant value being compared on the left. That, of course, can't be assigned to, and the compiler will catch your error if you use =.

if (SOME_FLAG = this.x) //compiler flags this
if (SOME_FLAG == this.x)

Same goes for other languages with this syntax (PHP, Javascript, C/C++).

Re:lvalue on the right (2)

dakameleon (1126377) | more than 3 years ago | (#35803638)

You're not always comparing with a constant; far safer is to wrap the variables with accessor methods, so you get a break if you try

if (objectA.getX() = objectB.getX())

It might be a bit more effort to type up, but it catches a bunch of easy gotchas.

Re:Java killer? (2)

tomhudson (43916) | more than 3 years ago | (#35803644)

That brings up another thing that's missing from java - operator overloading. The String class is overloaded, but we can't overload operators (even the + or ==) when it would make sense.

This is a case of "we don't trust the programmer to get it right", same as the lack of multiple inheritance and the stupidity of interfaces as a work-around.

Re:Java killer? (1)

functor0 (89014) | more than 3 years ago | (#35803512)

The new assignment operator ":="

Oh look, someone revived the Clipper dBASE compiler / Pascal syntax.

No, someone revived the the ALGOL 58 [wikipedia.org] syntax (yes, that is 1958) . Everything old will be new again ...

Re:Java killer? (1)

ae1294 (1547521) | more than 3 years ago | (#35803782)

The new assignment operator ":="

Oh look, someone revived the Clipper dBASE compiler / Pascal syntax.

No, someone revived the the ALGOL 58 [wikipedia.org] syntax (yes, that is 1958) . Everything old will be new again ...

What do you mean revive it? I still use Turbo Pascal... I mean http://www.freepascal.org/ [freepascal.org]

Re:Java killer? (4, Insightful)

Mongoose Disciple (722373) | more than 3 years ago | (#35803414)

why not ? if enough people decide it is a good idea and participate, it may take much shorter than you can imagine

I don't think you grasp how much Java stuff is out there already, even open source, and how many years it took to produce.

Open source isn't like a magical brownie cobbler that fixes your shoes in the night if you leave him a little saucer of milk. Sometimes it duplicates its effort, so to speak, for no good reason but I wouldn't bet on it on a massive scale any more than I'd bet on winning the lottery, except someone actually does typically win the lottery.

Open source: magical brownie cobbler? (1)

handy_vandal (606174) | more than 3 years ago | (#35803792)

Open source isn't like a magical brownie cobbler that fixes your shoes in the night if you leave him a little saucer of milk.

Made me laugh! Thanks!

Re:Java killer? (5, Insightful)

ceoyoyo (59147) | more than 3 years ago | (#35803074)

A new language that relies on an x86 processor to run sounds like it's in for an uphill battle....

There's no reason not to use the JVM. It's a highly optimized, widely distributed virtual machine (just like x86 processors are highly optimized, widely distributed actual machines).

Now Java as a language... leaves something to be desired.

Re:Java killer? (1)

larry bagina (561269) | more than 3 years ago | (#35803724)

It does use the JVM.

Re:Java killer? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35803802)

It's a highly optimized

Highly optimized means "can run a magnitude or more slower" than C or C++?

Re:Java killer? (4, Interesting)

raddan (519638) | more than 3 years ago | (#35803080)

My favorite part about the post is that he points to C# as an example of a "good" language, as if C# and Java were not essentially the same language. The JVM actually isn't all that bad-- it's mature, bug-free, and reasonably fast. But that's beside the point-- the JVM is like x86. Nobody* cares about the instruction set; they care about language features, and whether those features work quickly. And both the Java VM and Microsoft's .NET runtime have numerous options: IronRuby for .NET and JRuby for JVM, IronPython for .NET and Jython for JVM, Clojure, F#, yadda [wikipedia.org] , yadda [wikipedia.org] .

Reinventing the VM is a waste of time. And there are tons of languages to choose from for those VMs. So I don't quite see the point of this. The slides appear to be slashdotted, and just from the post's talking points... yawn.

* "nobody" here should be read as "very few", i.e., mostly people who write JIT compilers and not people who write enterprise code.

Re:Java killer? (4, Insightful)

cakoose (460295) | more than 3 years ago | (#35803446)

My favorite part about the post is that he points to C# as an example of a "good" language, as if C# and Java were not essentially the same language.

C# started out essentially the same as Java. But at this point it's way better.

  • Function types and closures. This alone makes it way better.
  • More efficient generics (no boxing/unboxing).
  • Local variable type inference.
  • Coming in C# 5.0: automatic CPS transformation (async/await).

Re:Java killer? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35803566)

* "nobody" here should be read as "very few", i.e., mostly people who write JIT compilers and not people who write enterprise code.

What the fuck is "enterprise code"? I've heard this phrase used in so much marketing, but what the hell is it supposed to mean? It doesn't seem to indicate what the actual purpose of the software being developed is at all. Software can be maths heavy, user interface centric, database centric, IO intensive, string processing intensive, graph centric, bare-metal, portable, slow for no reason or highly optimised, but it's entirely possible and quite likely that any "enterprise" presumably meaning a large company, will use and/or develop software that falls into all those categories, and it's somewhat unlikely that one language is used for all those aspects.

Now it ought to be possible, and maybe one day there will be a language that is generally applicable (and some people think C or Java, or .net is it), but at the current time that doesn't seem that such a language exists, at least in widespread use.

The only real meaning I can think of for "enterprise" software, is "vendor charges us a lot of money for" software, as there is exactly no reason a company can't use the same software everyone else is using.

Re:Java killer? (3, Insightful)

Desler (1608317) | more than 3 years ago | (#35803818)

What the fuck is "enterprise code"? I've heard this phrase used in so much marketing, but what the hell is it supposed to mean?

Horribly bloated code written by mouth breathers who can't grasp any other language than one which doesn't hold their hand the entire way through. Oh and you usually have to throw in a couple of frameworks and then add additional frameworks on top of other frameworks to manage your other frameworks in the process of designing "enterprise" software.

Re:Java killer? (2)

MightyMartian (840721) | more than 3 years ago | (#35803690)

Having a VM that's not at the mercy of Oracle would, to my mind, be a huge plus. But Oracle's war against Google shows just how fraught with risk that could be.

Re:Java killer? (2)

dmomo (256005) | more than 3 years ago | (#35803146)

JVM bytecode and Java's language syntax are two very different things.

This is the Virtudyne story! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35803348)

Exactly. This sounds exactly like the Virtudyne business model [thedailywtf.com] : Writing a MS Office killer in... brace yourselves... Visual Basic for Applications (VBA)!!

"This is the first article in a four part series that tells of the rise and fall of Virtudyne, one of the largest privately-financed ($200M) disasters in our industry." A truly epic failure.
(A link to the actual company, that, I think, still exists, can be found in the comments.)

Re:Java killer? (1)

jjohnson (62583) | more than 3 years ago | (#35803542)

They're using the JVM; they're not aiming at compatibility with the SDK, or being able to run Java code, or run Ceylon code in a J2EE container. That makes the job a lot more manageable.

It's like sitting down and saying, "given the JVM, what should Java have been like?"

It had better not take off- (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35803022)

I've just spent the last 3 years of my learning f*****g Java! 3!

Scala? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35803040)

There's already a Java killer that runs on the JVM, it's called Scala.

I thought this dude had come up with a CVM (Ceylon Virtual Machine?), but sounds to me like just another wheel, re-invented.

I like not equals assignment operators (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35803052)

":=" as the assignment operator is a case of back to the future. Pascal uses it, and for anyone who's mistakenly typed "=" rather than "==" in C/C++ it can only be a good thing.

There was also the case not so long ago of someone trying to inject a grab root into the linux core using that mistake.
http://slashdot.org/story/03/11/06/058249/Linux-Kernel-Back-Door-Hack-Attempt-Discovered

Re:I like not equals assignment operators (2)

mysidia (191772) | more than 3 years ago | (#35803158)

":=" as the assignment operator is a case of back to the future. Pascal uses it, and for anyone who's mistakenly typed "=" rather than "==" in C/C++ it can only be a good thing.

Why don't we just move Linux kernel development to the ADA language, before it's too late?

Re:I like not equals assignment operators (0)

MightyMartian (840721) | more than 3 years ago | (#35803744)

Fuck that. I want an OS written in PHP3. Why have the odd security hole, make an OS that's nothing but security holes!

Re:I like not equals assignment operators (1)

functor0 (89014) | more than 3 years ago | (#35803530)

:= was originally an ALGOL 58 feature, but I digress. The real problem is not with operator ==, but with C allowing assignment in the conditional part of if statements.

Pointless (3, Insightful)

steveha (103154) | more than 3 years ago | (#35803108)

They are proposing a new language, with new syntax, requiring new libraries... that runs on the JVM.

Since Oracle owns the JVM and is trying to find ways to extract money from it, a new language that requires the JVM seems pointless.

If you just want better syntax, why not use one of the existing JVM languages such as Scala?

If you are pioneering a completely new language, why not pioneer a new virtual machine, and lawyer up and make sure Oracle doesn't have any grounds to sue you?

steveha

Re:Pointless (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35803132)

Oracle doesn't own the JVM - they own their reference implementation.

Re:Pointless (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35803214)

maybe they can rattle the Mono devs too. This is what SHOULD have been going on instead of Mono. At some point the will have critical mass and then the replacement vm just has to run their stuff. As several other OSS language projects rely on JVM (python, ruby, and others) to create new paradigms quickly, I'd see moving to a replacement a high priority. Mono's stuff could be borrowed, without trying to chase a for-profit standard, Mono's tools would jump 5 years ahead almost overnite.

Still stuck without rich types (2)

msobkow (48369) | more than 3 years ago | (#35803648)

As long as it runs on the JVM, it's still stuck without support for unsigned data types. Not interested.

>> According to the slides, ... (0)

Looce (1062620) | more than 3 years ago | (#35803112)

From TFA:

>> According to the slides, the Ceylon Project aims to create a programming language and SDK for business computing, designed with an eye to the successes and failures of the Java. It is built to run on the JVM

>>> the Ceylon Project is built to run on the JVM

Whoops!

Sounds like a more verbose C# (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35803136)

Why not just fix JVM so that it can handle modern languages like C#? Support for true generics would be nice...
Anyway, if you really want a cool language then give http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemerle a try

Re:Sounds like a more verbose C# (0, Flamebait)

telekon (185072) | more than 3 years ago | (#35803180)

modern languages like C#?

You, sir, have a perverse definition of 'modern'.

Re:Sounds like a more verbose C# (1)

narcc (412956) | more than 3 years ago | (#35803676)

modern languages like C#?

You, sir, have a perverse definition of 'modern'.

There are at least two ways to interpret your comment:

1) C# has been around about 10 years and is too old to be considered 'modern'
2) C# is not characteristic of the state-of-the-art.

OneToOne joins still broken (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35803160)

He should stop playing and go back to fixing Hibernate

hmm. (4, Insightful)

jensend (71114) | more than 3 years ago | (#35803216)

1. Put these guys, Walter Bright, and a few other folks (Alexandrescu? a couple of the best folks from the Java and C# camps?) in a building.

2. Lock the doors from the outside and guard the building until they've come up with the One True C++ Successor (both compilable to native code and a good target for a JIT) and the basic design for its standard library.

3. Profit^H^H^H^H^H^H End the ridiculous situation we have where systems-level programming is held back by 40-year-old braindead technologies like the C preprocessor while the dominant business programming languages are controlled by corporations with terrible track records.

Re:hmm. (1)

MightyMartian (840721) | more than 3 years ago | (#35803768)

A-fucking-men! I want to elect you president of programming!

Re:hmm. (1)

ADRA (37398) | more than 3 years ago | (#35803770)

"both compilable to native code and a good target for a JIT" == fail. I always find that going against the grain and trying to force deep native/managed integration to be a big fail. Most companies will do 100% one way or the other, and anyone else left straddling the fence never end up satisfied with the implementation anyways.

Another One! Just what we need (1)

Virtucon (127420) | more than 3 years ago | (#35803218)

Let's see, C, C++, C#, Java, Python, Perl, Ruby, F#, VB, Fortran and even Ada still lurking about.

We need another "language" like we need a hole in our collective heads. Like others have pointed out another language to sit on top of a JVM, meaning it will generate byte code but is it really better? I guess only time will tell.

Re:Another One! Just what we need (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35803526)

Let's see, C, C++, C#, Java, Python, Perl, Ruby, F#, VB, Fortran and even Ada still lurking about.

...

And, just for completeness, there is D, Pascal, Algol, Lisp, Tcl, Snobol, et cetera, et cetera.

One the other hand, the fact that, after each of these arrived on scene, yet another was developed -- this could be used to argue, using proof by induction, that yet another will occur, and stake out a piece of territory, necessary or not. (Ad infinitum?)

Re:Another One! Just what we need (3, Funny)

garyebickford (222422) | more than 3 years ago | (#35803734)

Don't forget all the other important languages!
* brainfuck
* whitespace
* piet
* INTERCAL
* false
* befunge
* malbolge
and, of course (last but not least!)
* LOLCODE

Doesn't Solve Java's Problems (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35803238)

Java's syntax is not the problem.

I thought that the problem with Java is that Oracle is controlling it, and seems to have a good chance of f*cking things up. This new language runs on top of the JVM. So, Oracle might make new versions of the JVM specifically incompatible. Now, maybe you can use the Davalik VM instead. But, Oracle is suing Google over that.

In short, adopting this language has all the same issues that Java has.

   

Credit card relief (-1, Offtopic)

semon (1964650) | more than 3 years ago | (#35803240)

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Re:Credit card relief (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35803344)

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DIE IN A FIRE, YOU SPAMMING FUCK.

Just use perl (1)

Sam36 (1065410) | more than 3 years ago | (#35803320)

It is like java but gets you done on schedule and under budget.

D anyone? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35803496)

What about the D language?

Missing feature in Java: Copy on write (4, Insightful)

Michael Woodhams (112247) | more than 3 years ago | (#35803516)

My number 1 missing feature in Java is the ability to set object references to be 'copy on write'.

I'm doing numerical/scientific programming. Say I have an object which contains an array, and a 'get' function to return that array. Currently I have two choices: I can return a pointer to my object's array, or make a copy of the array and return that.

Returning a pointer is very fast, but now my class is at the mercy of callers which might write into my array. Returning a copy is safe, but so long as the callers behave themselves and don't try to write to it, is a waste of time and memory. If I could return a "copy-on-write-reference" to my array, I'd get the best of both worlds.

Any reference reached via a copy-on-write-reference would also need to be copy-on-write. If you make copy-on-write a qualifier on a variable, this could be all enforced by the compiler.

Are there any languages which do something like this?

Re:Missing feature in Java: Copy on write (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35803618)

CopyOnWriteArrayList ..?

http://www.javamex.com/tutorials/synchronization_concurrency_8_copy_on_write.shtml

Re:Missing feature in Java: Copy on write (1)

dakameleon (1126377) | more than 3 years ago | (#35803720)

I can imagine it being cleverly implemented in something like LLVM, but that really says to me that you need to better define the boundaries in your program/algorithm. What's the use-case for write-to-copy beyond the abstract example above?

Re:Missing feature in Java: Copy on write (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35803764)

Are there any languages which do something like this?

Yes there is a lot of languages that can do that.... it's called abstraction :), return an "Array" that copies it's contents at the moment of setting values, you can do that in almost any OO programming language, in some of them you can even have the "get" method named with a "[ ]" syntax.

Sadly, I have seen this movie before... (0)

bogaboga (793279) | more than 3 years ago | (#35803520)

...and nothing has come of it!

Those movies involved languages like Groovy, Scala, Jython, JRuby, C# and so on.

Nothing will beat Java as a language. Nothing! And with Google's Android using the 'Java' language. The fruits of the Ceylon project will, as the saying goes, be 'dead on arrival.'

Programming in Java Makes Me Want to Kill Myself (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 3 years ago | (#35803554)

Java might seem really slick if you programmed in C or C++, but find me a Python, Perl, Ruby or PHP developer that finds Java in the least bit useful. If I'm going to be sold enterprise bloat ware, I'd just as soon do .NET, at least I would get a great IDE for all my troubles. Live by the "Enterprise" die by the "Enterprise", marketing can only take you so far, value lasts forever!

Re:Programming in Java Makes Me Want to Kill Mysel (1)

balbeir (557475) | more than 3 years ago | (#35803806)

Ah, at least one voice of reason

Grammar nazi here... (1)

SanityInAnarchy (655584) | more than 3 years ago | (#35803596)

It is built to run on the JVM, uses static typing, and supports high while maintaining a strong focus on being easy learn and easy to read.

Supports high what? Does it just support being high?

Re:Grammar nazi here... (2)

talawahdotnet (2039892) | more than 3 years ago | (#35803780)

Oops. That should have been "high-order functions". Corrected
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