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Linus Chews Up Kernel Maintainer For Introducing Userspace Bug

timothy posted about a year and a half ago | from the otherwise-of-course-I'd-be-a-kernel-rockstar dept.

Bug 1051

An anonymous reader points out just how thick a skin it takes to be a kernel developer sometimes, linking to a chain of emails on the Linux Kernel Mailing List in which Linus lets loose on a kernel developer for introducing a change that breaks userspace apps (in this case, PulseAudio). "Shut up, Mauro. And I don't _ever_ want to hear that kind of obvious garbage and idiocy from a kernel maintainer again. Seriously. I'd wait for Rafael's patch to go through you, but I have another error report in my mailbox of all KDE media applications being broken by v3.8-rc1, and I bet it's the same kernel bug. And you've shown yourself to not be competent in this issue, so I'll apply it directly and immediately myself. WE DO NOT BREAK USERSPACE! Seriously. How hard is this rule to understand? We particularly don't break user space with TOTAL CRAP. I'm angry, because your whole email was so _horribly_ wrong, and the patch that broke things was so obviously crap. ... The fact that you then try to make *excuses* for breaking user space, and blaming some external program that *used* to work, is just shameful. It's not how we work," writes Linus, and that's just the part we can print. Maybe it's a good thing, but there's certainly no handholding when it comes to changes to the heart of Linux.

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Still.... (4, Funny)

jimpop (27817) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416265)

...a better love story than Twilight.

Arsehole (5, Insightful)

GrahamCox (741991) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416269)

Winning friends and influencing people since 1983.

Seriously, who'd put up with this crap? There are nicer ways to make ones way through life.

Re:Arsehole (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42416305)

I wish my boss would show the same concern for the quality of our software, and scream at the programmers that break it every day. Unfortunately it doesn't happen, and other programmers end up fixing the broken code (and quietly grumbling) because otherwise they would not be able to do their jobs.

Sometimes harsh words can send a message better than a general "please check your code before you commit".

Re:Arsehole (0)

BasilBrush (643681) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416437)

I wish my boss would show the same concern for the quality of our software, and scream at the programmers that break it every day.

Presumably the programmers working for your boss are paid. Why anyone would put up with this shit when Linus isn't paying is beyond me.

Re:Arsehole (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42416517)

Ahh, you think linux developers aren't paid, that's precious.

Re:Arsehole (5, Insightful)

phantomfive (622387) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416563)

I think the point is, Linus would rather the guy not do any work than to continue to produce such garbage code. He would rather make every change himself, than to rely on fellow-programmers who will only make things worse.

And that's understandable. Bad programmers will cost you more time than they save.

Re:Arsehole (0, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42416671)

Being a Kernel Developer is a lot like being a Navy Seal or construction worker - You gotta be tough and know your role. This means no whining about swear words or racist or sexist phrases, and if you have a vagina between your legs, you'd better back it up with more balls than your cocked compadres. You get knocked to the floor and you suck it up and keep chargin'. If you can't handle that, then perhaps you should go work for an FTD or Baskin-Robbins store, the men are trying to get work done.

This shit is deep, not for timid and politically correct finger-wagging sissyboys. Linus is a benevolent dictator and acting in the best interests of the movement -- and that Latino or Dago, Morono or whatever his name was, was lucky that Linus didn't kick his ass, because Linus hates ethnic minorities. He sees daily what they are doing to his beloved homeland and regrets that he has to work with them. And if there's one thing you don't do, it's break Linus' fucking userspace, because kernel developers are held to a much higher standard than Microsoft's flea-bitten army of stinky H1-B monkies. This isn't a fucking game. This is a new era of computing as we know it.

 

Re:Arsehole (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42416735)

Get over yourself and go back to your Saturday morning cartoons.

Re:Arsehole (4, Insightful)

MacGyver2210 (1053110) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416723)

I would happily put up with that and more just for the credit of being one of the select few who get to work on the kernel. To have the ear of the man(or team) that gets to decide the direction it goes for the future.

I guarantee you I'd never make that same mistake again. I'm sure if he hadn't tried to blame the user Linus would have been a little nicer about it.

Re:Arsehole (0, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42416743)

When you climb a mountain to learn at the feet of a master, do you expect him to pay you as well as teach you, fool?

Re:Arsehole (5, Insightful)

jjohnson (62583) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416519)

Of course, neither harsh words nor general "please check" encomiums are as good as calmly, straightforwardly stating "we do it this specific way, you did it that way instead, as a result we have this undesirable result. Do it again, correctly. In the future, check X, Y and Z to ensure that you don't repeat this mistake."

Only in the socially retarded world of /. is this sort of behaviour lauded because the best behaviour that I described above seems too goddamned difficult to manage.

Re:Arsehole (4, Insightful)

amiga3D (567632) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416585)

While I agree somewhat with what you say I have to say that sometimes it is necessary to chew people out. I don't know what the situation is or the personality of the maintainer but people are different. What works with some doesn't with others. I have supervised people in a maintenance environment and while some just needed to be told what to do and let them run with it there were others that had to be kickstarted. Some people do actually benefit from a good ass chewing.

Re:Arsehole (4, Interesting)

Zeussy (868062) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416601)

Do we have the full story here? Has the maintainer done this repeatedly, or was this his first mistake? We are all human.

Re:Arsehole (5, Funny)

Coeurderoy (717228) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416707)

come on it's pulse audio related, of course people get nervous, angry and easily irritated ...

Re:Arsehole (5, Funny)

dcollins (135727) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416651)

"Only in the socially retarded world of /. is this sort of behaviour lauded because the best behaviour that I described above seems too goddamned difficult to manage."

Tut, tut, good sir. Next time please do try to deliver your observations in more civilized and diplomatic language.

Re:Arsehole (1)

murdocj (543661) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416701)

The problem with harsh words is that they piss people off, and then the discussion tends to get off-track. Much better to focus on the problem at hand rather than generating a lot of back & forth anger. The kernel dev in this case actually seems to have done a really good job at remaining calm.

Re:Arsehole (1)

TapeCutter (624760) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416705)

The hard truth can be both painful and constructive, but telling someone that they suck does not require "harsh words". There is simply no need for a stream of abuse via emial. However a dud developer is not the case here, Linus says he thinks the guy is competent in the summary quote, indicating it was a mistake. So if Linus never makes mistakes and is that upset somebody else has, then he should sack the guy. If it was me he wouldn't have to, I'd leave (after picking a few choice quotes in a "send all" email explaining my resignation). I haven't RTFA, but if the bug escaped into a "stable" release then Linus' development/change procedures should take the blame, not the guy who tripped over them.

Disclaimer: Worked in the construction industry as a laborer for 15yrs, lots of abusive bosses, some of them sporting missing front teeth from their destructive criticism.

not good management technique (4, Insightful)

mbkennel (97636) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416325)

It's just a kernel patch, nothing to be actually "angry" about. Why so emotional? And especially when it's somebody who is not an employee.

Just say, "It is our firm policy that we do not break XXX, even when any given developer wishes they could. If you wish to continue contributing, you must follow the policy. Please apply the fix ASAP and acknowledge your understanding of these conditions."

Re:not good management technique (4, Insightful)

fredprado (2569351) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416361)

Because the guy screwed up and tried to make excuses. At his position Linus does not have to put with childish behavior from his staff, he can choose who works with him.

Re:not good management technique (4, Insightful)

mbkennel (97636) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416445)

"At his position Linus does not have to put with childish behavior from his staff"

a) it wasn't his staff, it was somebody from Redhat. And even if it were....
b) Linus was the only childish one getting all pantytied and emotional.

Did you read the rest of the thread? And how the other people responded?

It seems to be a complicated issue. The other people acknowledged the bug but showed it in context of some rather difficult hardware & driver issues across multiple areas.

Re:not good management technique (1)

amiga3D (567632) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416599)

It's Linus, he's god and whatever he does is okay. Didn't you get the memo?

Re:not good management technique (1)

BasilBrush (643681) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416451)

No, he screwed up and asked questions to better understand what the problem was, and the reasoning behind the suggested patch. And you say "his staff" - is he paying?

Re:not good management technique (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42416699)

So, on a first glance, this doesn't sound like a regression,
but, instead, it looks tha pulseaudio/tumbleweed has some serious
bugs and/or regressions.

In what reality is that a question?

Re:not good management technique (1)

murdocj (543661) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416713)

No, if you bother to read the rest of the thread, the guy had a good and valid reason that makes sense. He agrees that the actual patch was incorrect, but the issue that Linus brings up about maintaining consistent error codes is exactly the issue that the kernel maintainer was addressing.

Re:not good management technique (1)

ISoldat53 (977164) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416435)

Reminds me of Microsoft's "Management by screaming" style they had 15 years ago.

Re:not good management technique (0)

BasilBrush (643681) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416461)

Linus may well have thrown a chair.

Re:not good management technique (2)

davidbrit2 (775091) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416503)

Their new style is "Marketing by screaming".

Re:not good management technique (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42416507)

Yeah he should have only resorted to the flaming if the guy persisted in not responding correctly to the polite method.

But kernel developers are willing to put up with Linus's flaws. Just like Apple developers were willing to put up with Steve Job's flaws.

Re:Arsehole (5, Insightful)

fredprado (2569351) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416335)

He isn't trying to make friends. He is trying to manage the efforts to implement a particularly complex piece of software, whilst hearing bullshit from one of his developers who made a very big mistake.

Everybody makes mistakes, but the right posture when it was obviously your fault is to take the blame and learn from them, not to try and make excuses.

Re:Arsehole (5, Insightful)

Hal_Porter (817932) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416665)

How technical do I need to be before I can get away with telling people to "SHUT THE FUCK UP!". Script monkey? OS Kernel developer?

Actually it has nothing to do with technical ability. You can tell people to shut the fuck up if you're not in a position to get fired when your boss finds out. I.e. you own the company or, like Linus, you are Benevolent Dictator For Life on some open source project.

Of course - as Ulrich Drepper found out - even Benevolent Dictators For Life can look out of the window and see that the peasants are tearing down their statues, Ceausescu style. And most people reading this would get shitcanned from their sysadmin job a lot quicker than that for not jumping when their boss tells them.

Really the tech world would be a lot more pleasant if people didn't conflate rudeness and technical competence. Most people seem to master the rudeness, neglect the technical competence and then wonder why they are undervalued.

Re:Arsehole (1)

murdocj (543661) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416721)

Having a bad flashback to a previous job where the head of engineering thought that being an asshole was a job requirement.

Re:Arsehole (4, Insightful)

TrekkieGod (627867) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416717)

He isn't trying to make friends. He is trying to manage the efforts to implement a particularly complex piece of software, whilst hearing bullshit from one of his developers who made a very big mistake. Everybody makes mistakes, but the right posture when it was obviously your fault is to take the blame and learn from them, not to try and make excuses.

You can't fix unprofessionalism by being unprofessional. Linus's response is uncalled for, and if anyone I work for ever tells me to shut the fuck up, he can start looking for my replacement, and won't ever need to hear me speak up again.

I agree with Linus's reasoning for why it's really a kernel bug, not a pulseaudio bug. The correct way of handling this would be to simply say, "you need to own up to this thing, because it's our policy that any kernel changes that breaks userspace applications is our problem. Fix this now." If for some reason this is a constant issue with the guy, than you remove him from that role as maintainer, but based on the lkml thread and the responses from Mauro, it seems Mauro had good reason to believe some things would remain broken after reverting the changes to the kernel, so he was just trying to understand the problem better. He behaved professionally, calmly explaining his position and agreeing with Linus about his mistake, on the face of having an adult throwing a tamper tantrum at him. Kudos to his patience, I don't share it. You simply could not pay me enough to work with someone who very publicly disrespected me in the way Linus did with him.

Re:Arsehole (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42416353)

People who care about doing the right thing?

Re:Arsehole (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42416355)

Can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

necessary (3, Interesting)

Narcocide (102829) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416381)

can't let shit like that fly. i think Linus did the right thing in the circumstances. i have wished no less than 1000 times over the years that my own various bosses would have shown that they even gave half as much of a crap about utterly unacceptable coding being released into production by my own co-workers.

Re:Arsehole (0, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42416385)

Kernel maintainers who are interested in a stable kernel, that's who'll put up with it. This isn't a 1/2 developer, 3 user project that scratches someone's itch. Not only is it prestigious position people would want to put on their resume, many of them are paid to work on the kernel and their employers will not accept "Linus was mean when I fucked up badly" as an excuse to not do their job.

also (1)

Narcocide (102829) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416389)

its about getting the job done, not "winning friends and influencing people"

Re:also (2)

jjohnson (62583) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416537)

Those two things tend to go together, in the rest of the world.

Re:also (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42416643)

Freetards don't actually live in the real world. They seem to live in some odd version of the 1980s where nobody bathes and gay sex between fat neckbeards is rampant.

This is somewhat related... (5, Funny)

Lisias (447563) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416281)

This is somewhat related with this Linus' post [google.com] on G+?

Linus? Does the poster mean Toorvalds or.. (0)

nopainogain (1091795) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416285)

does he mean "Linux" and just lack the ability to form words with a keyboard?

Re:Linus? Does the poster mean Toorvalds or.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42416339)

ALERT! ALERT! MORON DETECTED!

Re:Linus? Does the poster mean Toorvalds or.. (0)

nopainogain (1091795) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416543)

patting you on your head like a good little border collie. you're so well trained.

Linus Tortillaville (0)

For a Free Internet (1594621) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416313)

Linus Tortillaville is a buttgoat sniffer who poops on his face with his weiner.

Don't piss off the boss (3, Interesting)

YrWrstNtmr (564987) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416315)

Make a screwup this major, and this is what you get.

Re:Don't piss off the boss (-1)

BasilBrush (643681) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416469)

Linus ain't the boss. He's not paying.

Re:Don't piss off the boss (3, Insightful)

flargleblarg (685368) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416529)

A leader need not be paying to be boss.

Re:Don't piss off the boss (1)

YrWrstNtmr (564987) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416579)

There are more definitions of 'boss' than 'he who signs the paycheck'.

boss 1 (bôs, bs) [thefreedictionary.com]
n.
1.
a. An employer or a supervisor.
b. One who makes decisions or exercises authority.
2. A professional politician who controls a party or a political machine.

I wonder (3, Interesting)

BeTeK (2035870) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416343)

I Wonder how often these kind of conversations are held inside of a corporation and never see light of day. At least GNU movement is candid and open about the kind of mishaps.

Re:I wonder (1)

WilyCoder (736280) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416417)

open source, open fighting!

Re:I wonder (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42416441)

This is Linux, not the GNU Movement.

Re:I wonder (1)

BeTeK (2035870) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416623)

nitpicking but fair enough

Re:I wonder (1)

phantomfive (622387) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416695)

I Wonder how often these kind of conversations are held inside of a corporation and never see light of day.

In my experience, fairly often, but entirely dependent on the team/company. Some managers think shouting and yelling is appropriate, others manage to do without.

Rumor is Apple managers are all like that, but I can't comment on that rumor.

Re:I wonder (4, Insightful)

Anrego (830717) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416749)

To be honest, I wish it happened more.

I _wish_ management where I am cared about quality at this level. It would be worth getting chewed out once in a while to know that stupid bugs are not tolerated.

It's not how we work (1)

Osgeld (1900440) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416349)

no sir! how we work is to let shit fester and rot until a replacement comes along that solves the problem for us dammit!

if only more technical leads had this mindset (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42416351)

yes it is brutal this email thread is in the public. but the mindset linus has about the process is what separates the really good teams for the everyday teams. i had the opportunity to work on three different commercial unix operating system teams and this mindset is consistent with the teams that hit schedule with the appropriate quality.

Re:if only more technical leads had this mindset (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42416457)

I have a "chain of clients" theory of system design.

The kernel developers protect the library developers from having to deal with the hardware.
The library developers protect the applications developers from having to deal with the kernel.
The applications developers protect the users from having to deal with all of the above.

Everyone has shit to deal with, but if you break the chain and let some of your shit spill into another layer, then someone else has to deal with way more shit than they can reasonably be expected to handle.

Re:if only more technical leads had this mindset (1)

garcia (6573) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416753)

i had the opportunity to work on three different commercial unix operating system teams and this mindset is consistent with the teams that hit schedule with the appropriate quality.

That's nice; it's still not a management style most people tolerate well. However, coercive leadership is useful when there is a serious issue occurring (emergency, etc) and work needs to be accomplished immediately to correct it. Yet, I think it could have been worded a little differently--they're volunteers after all.

Not the bug... (5, Informative)

Tau Neutrino (76206) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416357)

It wasn't really the bug that set Linus off. At least not in my reading of the post. It was Mauro's cavalier attitude toward the bug. He tried to shrug it off as a problem with pulseaudio, when it clearly was a bug that he had introduced.

I'm not a big fan of this style of management, but I can't fault any of the content of Linus' rant.

Re:Not the bug... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42416483)

No actually it was Linus over reacting to someone without a superb grasp of the english language as shown in much of their correspondence. I think Linus is being kinda a dick without fully grasping the situation. Over the next few emails it's obvious that Mauro is a very level headed person who didn't quite get "how we communicate round' ere" and instead of explaining simply, Linus went postal on a guy trying to resolve a complex issue.

Read the last page of emails to see this:

https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/12/24/125

summary... Linus jumped to conclusions and some idiot posted this on slashdot before they had the whole story.

Re:Not the bug... (5, Informative)

krinderlin (1212738) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416613)

No. He clearly stated that he saw this, "at first glance," as something that Pulseaudio had been doing all along. The patch made a function not only return a different error code, but an error code that was never possible before the patch. The change was not documented, at all.

The submitter really set him up, though. If you look further up in the thread, the "rollback" was a simple one line change from ret = -ENOENT; to ret = -ENVAL;. I'm fairly certain that it was just overlooked in the code review for the entire patch.

What got him was that instead of going back and saying, "Huh. Why did we change this error code? Oh my, ENOENT was never even possible before this. This'll break all sorts of crap!" he blamed Pulseaudio. That's a serious no-no that's been covered several times in the history of the kernel.

Re:Not the bug... (1)

krinderlin (1212738) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416629)

s/had been doing all along/had been doing wrong all along/

Sorry.

Re:Not the bug... (5, Insightful)

krinderlin (1212738) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416561)

That was my reading exactly. As a programmer, I've had to condition my responses to bug reports to move from, "What?! It's totally your fault!" to, "Let me investigate this on my end." It became fairly obvious from the get go that the patch made some changes that were overlooked in the patch. The patch commit message failed to give any reason or justification for the change (which was a 1 line change, possibly in a sea of other changes). Furthermore, the automated testing application that the patch submitter was using had a bug in it.

It's likely the testing apparatus said, "OMG! THIS ERROR VALUE IS WRONG!" Then, the submitter corrected it to fit the bad test. Honestly, while Rafael signed off on it, it would appear the submitter set him up the bomb, so to speak. Who would make a change like that without further investigation and then submit it is a serious question. I would hope the patch submitter is placed under some additional scrutiny.

All in all, Rafael took it in stride in his response. He also explained further, but appears to have capitulated that his initial reaction was wrong and that he should have fixed first, asked "Why are you using that, anyway?" later. Also, he should have never stated that, "So, on a first glance, this doesn't sound like a regression, but, instead, it looks that pulseaudio/tumbleweed has some serious bugs and/or regressions." It's quite obvious that changing not only what error code is returned but returning one that was literally impossible without telling anyone is a Bad Thing(TM).

As for Linus's style of management, I don't know. I mean, Rafael was way, way, way out of line with that statement I quoted. He really failed to grasp the situation, even after it was clearly spelled out for him.

All in all, I think he's learned his lesson and will be better for it. He seems to have taken it well enough, at least publicly. :-)

I love linux but... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42416369)

I love linux but why on earth is Linus' behavior ever considered acceptable, and why do so many people in the computer/IT world behave in such an uncivilized way or make excuses for people who do behave like this? And if anything this seems to be one of his more "polite" letters.

Re:I love linux but... (4, Insightful)

Richy_T (111409) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416531)

There are some people who you could site down with and explain things for two hours and they would still go away and do their own thing. IT is particularly full of people like this (and I'm aware of and try to avoid my own inclinations in this direction). Sometimes, you just have to make it clear that something is important and that means raising the temperature even as (and especially as) you remain in control internally.

This is also a valuable parenting skill. I don't think that that's entirely coincidental.

Re:I love linux but... (2)

echnaton192 (1118591) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416567)

The answer is simple: We are Nerds. If you screw up, you say: I screwed up, sorry. And if others screw up, you tell them what is wrong and expect them to not blame others. Case closed. But most people that are not Nerds have the tendency to screw up and blane others. We do not tolerate this behavior amongst us. It's bad enough that the normal guys do that. Hand in your Nerd-Membership card if you think that stupid excuses and blaming others is a valid way of life. It may be for others. It is not for us. We went through a lot because we are what we are. We like working with others as long as they search for the best possible solution with reasonable effort tohügether with us. We get in a loud argument while we search for the best way. And we accept it when the other solution is better. We take pride in being proven wrong and admitting it. Let the stupid folks do the screwup and blame others.

This is Slashdot. It is for Nerds. It says so in the title. Nerds by definition are not the best ar social skills. Slashdot is not for the normal guys that make life so miserable for everyone who works in some Nerd-related field. We are the guys that e.g. think about different browsers and define them. Saves us lots of trouble in the future because the webbased app will most certainly not be broken just because the company decides to migrate vom Internetexploder 6 to a real browser. It is the incompetent Other Guys [tm] that think only 6 months into the future.

And I do not even use Linux. But Linus is obviously right to be upset. Not because of the error. But because of breaking the unwritten major rule for Nerds: If we screw up, we say so. And we do not blame others.

Period.

Can we... (1, Insightful)

anlprb (130123) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416391)

all get together and sit Shuttleworth in a room with Linus and lock the door for an hour after Linus has been forced to use Unity for a week? That would probably solve the problem. After what they did with Unity and then with the passing search terms out to the internet, I can't recommend Ubuntu, but through Ubuntu and MATE. They really screwed the pooch on that. They had the best chance at corporate desktop standardization but really lost it with forcing Unity on people. And yes, I have used it. It bites.

Re:Can we... (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42416467)

Unity bites? Try Windows 8. Unity is bliss!

Re:Can we... (2)

amiga3D (567632) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416611)

That's like saying gouging one eye out is better than gouging bother of them out.

LINUS DISPROVES RUMOUR THAT GAYS HAVE FUN !! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42416397)

The man proves that not all gays have fun !!

Re:LINUS DISPROVES RUMOUR THAT GAYS HAVE FUN !! (1)

amiga3D (567632) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416627)

You seem to be enjoying yourself.

Linus is an asshat, imho (0)

QuietLagoon (813062) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416401)

Seriously... that is an example of the absolutely worst management style I've ever seen. If you have a problem with someone's work, tell him/her so privately. To ream someone a new asshole, as Linus did, on a mailing list is beyond the pale.

Re:Linus is an asshat, imho (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42416475)

Yes, let's all play nice. Everyone have a love in. Never hurt anyone's feelings. Always be diplomatic. And take twice as long to get shit done. . Any successful organization has at its helm a leader that has the competence to form a vision, the willingness to do so, and the ability to execute on that vision. And that, by definition, means a no-nonsense approach.

Each of Microsoft, Apple, and the Linux Kernel are examples of organizations with leaders at their helm that demonstrate the above capabilities. And I doubt that the leaders of other long term successful organizations are any "cuddlier". It's brutal and cut-throat at this level. And for good reason.

Re:Linus is an asshat, imho (3, Insightful)

godrik (1287354) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416501)

I actually disaggree. This is not a private company where you are trying to spare people's feeling. It is a case of "you screw up, you get yelled at." Because it is a publicly managed project, the yelling happens in public. It also set the standard for every single other developper. The next time a user space bug is introduced. The kernel developer will not try to swipe it under the rug.

Re:Linus is an asshat, imho (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42416527)

Bullshit. That sort of namby-pamby handholding nonsense is for kindergarten. If you're in a position with that level of responsibility you don't screw up that badly and then slough it off. You take responsibility and if you don't or won't, then you *deserve* to get your ass handed to you publicly. I'd rather work in an atmosphere where everything was out in the open and project leads had the balls and leeway to speak like this rather than some poisonous corporate doublespeak behind-the-scenes crap.

I was doing QA for a small company back in the late 90s and I had go/no-go authority for any releases. If I said it didn't go, it didn't go. I damn well had to be able to justify it if I stopped a release, but I had the authority *and* the responsibility. If I screwed up my tests or didn't account for something in my test plan, then *I* got called on the carpet pretty much just like Linus did to this guy. And you know what? I'd deserve it. Professionals get paid professional dollars to do professional work, not amateur work.

Re:Linus is an asshat, imho (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42416589)

Given that this rant was in response to a post where the developer made excuses for his mistakes I'd say this was not Linus' first communication on the subject.

Re:Linus is an asshat, imho (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42416635)

In My Humble Opinion (imho), you should gs (get stuffed)!

May your soul forever bear the branding of walmart - and may your children work at McDonald's until their final breath - and may your stools be liberated by drones

Re:Linus is an asshat, imho (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42416637)

Unless that developer is disposable and you'd like to send a message aux les autres.

Hey Linus (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42416405)

Next time you feel the need to rant, please read over http://www.caliburn.nl/topposting.html first and follow the standard bottom-posting etiquette. It's hard to follow your rants when you keep switching back and forth between top and bottom posting.

The part we can print? (0)

damn_registrars (1103043) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416409)

Really? Since when did we worry about that? It's not like anyone reads this site any ways. And whatever he said I would bet money it isn't as bad as what comes out in most conversations here on slashdot.

Linus is wrong, and an asshole (-1, Redundant)

JoeyRox (2711699) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416429)

Mauro's rationale for the change was valid even if the research behind it was lacking re: the backward compatibility issues it may create.

Re:Linus is wrong, and an asshole (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42416491)

So it's perfectly okay to silently change a established ioctl to return -ENOENT instead of -EINVAL on some error condition, and then blame userspace when it breaks because it doesn't expect the new error code. Riiiight.

Scary.. (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42416431)

He's the head of Linux and he has some serious social issues!

This is not news. (4, Insightful)

JonniLuv (864539) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416453)

Seriously, someone makes a coding mistake in a pre-release kernel, there's a heated e-mail chain about it, and now it's on /. Why?

Re:This is not news. (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42416525)

Yeah, perhaps the real news is that Mauro seems to be dealing with the problem civilly. Good thing the Linux Kernel email is not anonymous; then what would have been said would REALLY be news. But in any case, these false news stories are making it difficult for me to understand how John McAfee got out of Belize.

Misquote (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42416471)

Where's the "fuck"? I think this site is grown up enough to use adult words. If you don't want to type it out, at least mask it so that you're not actually changing words that someone used.

Unfortunately, though we're big enough to use the words, they do have consequences. So I'm fully aware of the hypocrisy of posting AC

Re:Misquote (1)

Score Whore (32328) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416569)

The fuck would have been in the part of the email that they didn't quote. The part in the summary is from further down. Maybe you could try being informed before you have a tizzy fit about how mature we all are.

well it probably worked for him... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42416481)

and in open source world if it Works For Me(tm) that's all that matter and you're a stupid noob!

I could kiss the guy... (5, Insightful)

Qybix (103935) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416509)

I am so tempted to kiss the guy! Linux can't have this type of _OBVIOUS_ audio sabotage at the kernel level if we expect game developers to ever make their products available on Linux. Linus NEEDS to reign this in, we just can't afford it. He is 110% right.

Keep the helm firm, man! That's exactly what we need!

Qybix

Get serious. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42416615)

The lack of games on Linux isn't due to issues with audio drivers. The problem is that you cheap fucks don't want to pay for anything. That's not going to get fixed just because Linus throws a tantrum and dumps on someone who's trying to improve your hobby OS.

Did you understand the context? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42416557)

man ioctl

SYNOPSIS
          #include

          int
          ioctl(int fildes, unsigned long request, ...);

ERRORS
          Ioctl() will fail if:

          [EBADF] fildes is not a valid descriptor.
          [EINVAL] Request or argp is not valid.
          [ENOTTY] fildes is not associated with a character special device.
          [ENOTTY] The specified request does not apply to the kind of object that the descriptor fildes references. ....

ENOENT is indeed reserved for path-related operations, not ioctls. This is the equivalent of throwing a wrench into the gears of everything, because it breaks error handling for every operation that attempts to perform a control operation on any input/output stream it has. It would be like leaving the scalpel inside the patient if you were a doctor. This breaking behaviour was included in an rc release, which is bad bad bad. 3.8 is to be a new, stable release.

Additionally, if you take the time to read the emails between the V4L subsystem maintainer and the person who submitted the original patch, they have decided that this was perhaps an invalid interpretation of a part of the specification which is ambiguous (see https://patchwork.kernel.org/patch/1514831/ ).

But, don't let FACTS and CONTEXT get in the way of OMG THRASSSSSHIIINGGAAAA emotional responses. Fox news sure as hell doesn't.

Setting a wonderful example of leadership... (2, Insightful)

HockeyPuck (141947) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416559)

So it would assume that if the head of the Linux movement had rant like a child, I guess it's ok for all the other leaders of their projects, who don't have any leadership experience to follow this wonderful example.

Look Linus may be a great leader, but pompous crap like this doesn't belong. There's a reason why in management if you need to discipline/warn an employee, you do it in private not over the company mailing list.

Dude needs to read Dale Carnegie... (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42416581)

I wouldn't speak to anyone that way unless I never wanted to see them again. Shaming someone in public like this is a way to not only get them to quit, but to make a permanent enemy out of them.

What this tells me is that Linus is better suited to be a cult leader than a manager of any kind.

Heard it all before! (1)

CockMonster (886033) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416591)

I used work for a company that wrote frameworks and drivers for 3rd party apps. BC breaks were not tolerated at all unless supported by the appropriate paperwork. If they happened managers were called and fixes were rushed through as your team would not be allowed submit anything else until it was fixed. This break should have been caught.

Should have responded the MS way (1)

raymorris (2726007) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416595)

Linus could take a lesson from Balmer. Balmer would have said "great job, now people will have a reason to upgrade when we fix it in Windows 12 ten years from now". Seriously though, it's good to hear SOMEONE so insistent on not breaking things after waiting fifteen years for the same IE bug to be fixed. (Vary header bug breaks caching, saving files.)

The guy just didn't seem to understand his mistake (1)

el_tedward (1612093) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416679)

At first, anyways. If you check:

https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/12/24/125 [lkml.org]

He basically goes on to agree with most of Linus' points after a few back-and-forths. He was apparently trying to make certain error messages more uniform, which certain higher level pieces of software didn't appreciate.

Breaking userspace should be punished with (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42416687)

Mandatory anal space breaking (goatse joke, you know where to find the picture)

When to choose a new career (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42416703)

When you get paid $0/hr, and the boss chews you out and wants to fire you. Maybe, just maybe... you should consider a new career.

The answer to Linus' comment ... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42416729)

at the end of that diatribe: "Fix your f*cking "compliance tool", because it is obviously broken. And fix your approach to kernel programming"

is:

"How about you go and fix your f*cking social skills. When you can carry on a conversation without resorting to childish profanity, I'll come back and donate my free time to your project. Until then, go f*ck yourself."

Linus is fast becoming another RMS but without the benefit of a cohesive set of values.

Re:The answer to Linus' comment ... (3, Funny)

Lord Kano (13027) | about a year and a half ago | (#42416737)

at the end of that diatribe: "Fix your f*cking "compliance tool", because it is obviously broken. And fix your approach to kernel programming"

is:

"How about you go and fix your f*cking social skills. When you can carry on a conversation without resorting to childish profanity, I'll come back and donate my free time to your project. Until then, go f*ck yourself."

Linus is fast becoming another RMS but without the benefit of a cohesive set of values.

I was just thinking that Linus is showing himself to be the bastard child of ESR and Theo.

LK

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