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Oracle Seeking Community Feedback on Java 8 EE Plans

Unknown Lamer posted about 10 months ago | from the will-no-one-think-about-cyberdog dept.

Java 109

An anonymous reader writes with this quick bite from Info Q: "Oracle is seeking feedback from the Java community about what it should work on for the next version of Java EE, the popular and widely used enterprise framework. As well as standardizing APIs for PaaS and SaaS the vendor is looking at removing some legacy baggage including EJB 2.x remote and local client view (EJBObject, EJBLocalObject, EJBHome, and EJBLocalHome interfaces) and CORBA."

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Oracle is why I don't use java (1, Insightful)

i kan reed (749298) | about 10 months ago | (#45965413)

I learned java as my first "enterprise" language in school. Oracle is 100% enough motivation to never touch it again.

Re:Oracle is why I don't use java (-1, Offtopic)

cold fjord (826450) | about 10 months ago | (#45965539)

Did Microsoft similarly impair your willingness to code in C++? (Interesting notion, a company tainting a language.)

Re:Oracle is why I don't use java (4, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45965601)

Microsoft doesn't own C++, nor do they release the primary runtime for C++.

False equivalency.

Re:Oracle is why I don't use java (1)

cold fjord (826450) | about 10 months ago | (#45965627)

There are other Java implementations than Oracle's.

Re:Oracle is why I don't use java (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45966137)

And that makes your false equivalency better....how?

Re:Oracle is why I don't use java (1)

i kan reed (749298) | about 10 months ago | (#45966153)

Like... um... microsoft's? No wait, that got sued out of existence. IBM maybe? Google, I guess, if you count "only available as part of the OS, and also almost sued out of existence".

Re:Oracle is why I don't use java (2)

Nerdfest (867930) | about 10 months ago | (#45966305)

OpenJDK?

Re:Oracle is why I don't use java (1)

i kan reed (749298) | about 10 months ago | (#45966345)

I was just bringing up sun's (and later oracle's) propensity to sue people who make different versions of java.

Re:Oracle is why I don't use java (1)

ausekilis (1513635) | about 10 months ago | (#45966661)

You mean this OpenJDK [java.net] ? The one on Oracle's java.net site?

Download and install the open-source JDK 7 for most popular Linux distributions. If you came here looking for Oracle JDK 7 product binaries for Solaris, Linux, Mac OS X or Windows, which are based largely on the same code, you can download them from java.oracle.com.

Oracle has a strangle-hold on the language, even on the front of OpenJDK's website it tells you to download binaries from Oracle.

Re:Oracle is why I don't use java (2)

Bacon Bits (926911) | about 10 months ago | (#45968893)

GNU Classpath [gnu.org] , GCJ, GIJ. IKVM.NET, technically, too.

Re:Oracle is why I don't use java (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45965673)

Microsoft does not control the C++ standard nor the future of the language.
Oracle does.

Re:Oracle is why I don't use java (1)

ArhcAngel (247594) | about 10 months ago | (#45966201)

Wait? Oracle controls the C++ standard and the future of the language? When did THAT happen and why wasn't I informed?

Re:Oracle is why I don't use java (1)

GameMaster (148118) | about 10 months ago | (#45968421)

You haven't heard? A few months ago Larry Ellison had Bjarne Stroustrup kidnapped. He's holding him hostage on his America's Cup boat somewhere in international waters. If ISO and IEC don't do what he says, Struostrup joins Wilson...

Re:Oracle is why I don't use java (2)

i kan reed (749298) | about 10 months ago | (#45965713)

Oracle is a tech company that manages to be worse than Microsoft.

Re:Oracle is why I don't use java (3, Insightful)

John Allsup (987) | about 10 months ago | (#45967761)

No, but in my early programming days, trying to program Windows nearly put me off programming entirely.

Re:Oracle is why I don't use java (3, Interesting)

Kimomaru (2579489) | about 10 months ago | (#45967145)

Yeah, Java and MySQL has seen better times - both platforms have recieved similar criticisms with regards to patching security issues. I don't much care if the world stops using Java, but the MySQL situation breaks my heart. On to MariaDB.

Re:Oracle is why I don't use java (1)

Nivag064 (904744) | about 10 months ago | (#45970117)

You might want to look at http://www.postgresql.org/ [postgresql.org] - I've done at least 5 intensive searches on the Internet over the last 14 years, and each time it postgres has come ahead of MySQL in performance, reliability, ease of use etc. I did some DBA & Java programming in MySQL in one job, and have a client with MySQL.

Where I have a free choice, I use postgres.

Re:Oracle is why I don't use java (1)

Kimomaru (2579489) | about 10 months ago | (#45970525)

Thank you for the advice, I will look into it.

Funny ... (4, Insightful)

gstoddart (321705) | about 10 months ago | (#45965431)

Oracle doesn't usually give a damn about what people want.

If so, they'd already know we don't want that stupid Ask.com toolbar and they should stop trying to sneak it in.

Re:Funny ... (4, Funny)

i kan reed (749298) | about 10 months ago | (#45965461)

Nothing says "professional tool for serious tasks" like crappy adware shoved in.

Java Feedback (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45966093)

Ooh, add the Ask toolbar again. That's always a load of fun.

Re:Funny ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45968719)

Oracle doesn't usually give a damn about what people want.

If they don't know what people want, how can they completely ignore it or do the exact opposite?

Re:Funny ... (2)

Winamp (3439895) | about 10 months ago | (#45970585)

Download Java from here instead:

http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/downloads/index.html [oracle.com]

No Ask.com toolbar, the option for online or offline installers as well a multitude of different platforms. I've NEVER, EVER downloaded Java anywhere else because of my habit of going to this site first (it's where you get the JDK after all).

I really wish more people knew about this. Seems like everyone prefers to whine rather than find a solution.

Also FWIW, if you pine for the days of offline installers for Adobe Flash (since they got rid of the offline installers from the main Flash page), go here:

http://www.adobe.com/products/flashplayer/distribution3.html [adobe.com]

Object database (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45965457)

There I said it. I want an object database and with a standardized interface. Entity beans and JPA can screw themselves.

Re:Object database (1)

ArhcAngel (247594) | about 10 months ago | (#45965485)

Entity beans and JPA can screw themselves.

The images my mind just created... I need help!

Re:Object database (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45966121)

There is value in the JPA abstraction layer. Most large enterprises have multiple databases of various generations and need software that can talk to all of them. In that sense JPA is a blessing.

Open Source it (5, Insightful)

ArhcAngel (247594) | about 10 months ago | (#45965467)

Everyone is thinking it but everyone knows Larry doesn't give anything away for free. Even his free software costs you money somewhere...

Re:Open Source it (1)

ynoref (3297285) | about 10 months ago | (#45965551)

Agreed.

Re:Open Source it (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45965923)

I thought Sun opensourced it already?

Open source what exactly? (2)

coder111 (912060) | about 10 months ago | (#45966569)

Java itself is open-source already- OpenJDK.

There are several JavaEE servers that are open source, Jboss and Glassfish are the biggest two. As far as I remember, Glassfish is the reference implementation. It's as open-source as it can be.

Or are you talking about Technology Compatibility Kits? Or Java trademark? Development model itself? Or what?

--Coder

Re:Open source what exactly? (3, Insightful)

ArhcAngel (247594) | about 10 months ago | (#45967037)

Hand it over to IEEE or another organization to steer its development. Oracle doesn't exactly want what's best for Java.

Re:Open source what exactly? (2)

saleenS281 (859657) | about 10 months ago | (#45967707)

Except you can't use it for commercial implementations. You have to pay Oracle if you want to create a product based on it, which is how Larry gets his money.

Re:Open source what exactly? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45970487)

Horseshit.

We produce commercial apps and we don't pay a penny. Damn thing's GPL - how can they charge?

realworld suggestions for Java 8 (3, Funny)

nimbius (983462) | about 10 months ago | (#45965525)

Ive found several benefits to removing Java 8 entirely.
1. budget performance: by reducing expenditures on support contracts and Oracle licensing fees my budget has stopped looking like a Syrian casualty report.
2. maintenance productivity: developers have stopped hurling themselves nude through my expensive plate glass windows as they wail 'exception access violation!' This frees up maintenance to address more urgent concerns.
3. Environmental impact: We've reduced out environmental footprint by shredding our tear-stained contracts, and mulching them with our ancient blood-soaked documentation to create a spreadable compost that just brings out the absolute best in the landscaping.
4. Wellness impact: Thanks to removing Java our datacenter now runs closer to the temperatures the CRACS were designed to endure. While common HR functions like the weekly jboss report run luau-themed weenie roast have unfortunately been ended, the number of sysops that survive provisioning has improved. Analysts are also no longer permitted to refer to the datacenter provisioning process as 'the trip to mordor'

Re:realworld suggestions for Java 8 (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45965759)

Ive found several benefits to removing Java 8 entirely. 1. budget performance: by reducing expenditures on support contracts and Oracle licensing fees my budget has stopped looking like a Syrian casualty report. 2. maintenance productivity: developers have stopped hurling themselves nude through my expensive plate glass windows as they wail 'exception access violation!' This frees up maintenance to address more urgent concerns. 3. Environmental impact: We've reduced out environmental footprint by shredding our tear-stained contracts, and mulching them with our ancient blood-soaked documentation to create a spreadable compost that just brings out the absolute best in the landscaping. 4. Wellness impact: Thanks to removing Java our datacenter now runs closer to the temperatures the CRACS were designed to endure. While common HR functions like the weekly jboss report run luau-themed weenie roast have unfortunately been ended, the number of sysops that survive provisioning has improved. Analysts are also no longer permitted to refer to the datacenter provisioning process as 'the trip to mordor'

Wipe. Rinse. Repeat. YMMV OVWPBL

Re:realworld suggestions for Java 8 (1)

VGPowerlord (621254) | about 10 months ago | (#45966359)

I know this is a parody, but...

1. budget performance: by reducing expenditures on support contracts and Oracle licensing fees my budget has stopped looking like a Syrian casualty report.

That sounds suspiciously like a complaint about Oracle's database product, not Java. No one in their right mind actually licenses Java stuff from Oracle, which is why Oracle constantly has shit-fits about it.

Re:realworld suggestions for Java 8 (1)

afidel (530433) | about 10 months ago | (#45970217)

No one in their right mind actually licenses Java stuff from Oracle
LOTS of companies license JavaEE from Oracle, in the form of OAS and Weblogic licenses.

plus 4, Troolt) (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45965543)

Th4eir hand...she halt. Even Emacs

Why do people use this shit anyway? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45965621)

I've heard people ranting and raving about this Java shit, but evrything they do I can do better in FOSS tools and software. Why you we still use this 'write once .. get hacked everywhere" shit?

Re:Why do people use this shit anyway? (0)

macbeth66 (204889) | about 10 months ago | (#45966829)

Apart from Oracle and one app in my company, I don't even see Java anymore. I've forgotten most of what I was forced to learn.

Who is using it anymore and for what and why?

Re:Why do people use this shit anyway? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45967151)

Millions of back end web application processes, millions of web applications, pretty much any site that has 1 million+ daily users. Java is everywhere and if you dont see it, you are in a rare niche.

It's used everywhere (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45967409)

Amazon, LinkedIn, Twitter, Facebook, etc., etc.

Security (2)

BinBoy (164798) | about 10 months ago | (#45965669)

Put fewer security holes in it. Maybe just one or two.

Re:Security (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45965957)

Put fewer security holes in it. Maybe just one or two.

If an Oracle employee suggests that kind of shit, they are immediately fired.

If an Oracle lawyer suggests that kind of shit, they are immediately fired and disbarred.

Putting fewer bugs of any kind is also considered a class-III felony if found within 1,000 lines of any Oracle-owned code.

Gotta remember and respect where the other 80% of their revenue comes from. Largest fucking software mafia in existence.

Re:Security (3, Insightful)

broken_chaos (1188549) | about 10 months ago | (#45967377)

They should just ditch the browser plugin by default. Support it as 'legacy' for a version or two, but don't ship or install by default (hell, they could even only offer it to corporate customers for all I care). It's the biggest problem with Java -- otherwise you pretty well get what you expect if you download and run unknown code, no worse than any other language. It's not like C's ability to completely tear your operating system apart if you run code you don't know is a bug, after all.

Kill the browser plugin (1)

monkeyhybrid (1677192) | about 10 months ago | (#45968579)

Spot on. The Java browser plugin is the real life vector for getting pwned, not Java the language or the Java virtual machine. Malicious code written in C could do a lot worse with a lot less lines of code - it's just that we don't have browser plugins for running x86 code. Ok... with Google's NaCl, that may be changing!

If Oracle want to save Java's reputation they have to kill the browser plugin. Like you suggest, make it an optional legacy download and set a date for when it will be killed off completely.

Two Tips (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45965685)

Don't make it full of security bugs.

Don't include crapware in the installer for the package and EVERY subsequent update.

Speaking of updates... Don't make it so fucking hard to customize the installation! Having to create transforms with Orca which break installations preventing future updates is a bunch of shit.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, don't try to be Adobe.

Re:Two Tips (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45968249)

Also, make it possible to upgrade without being Admin (in windows land). It's beyond fucking stupid you get prompted to enter the administrator password because java needs to update, 10 seconds later saying "update found click here to update", only to fail and make you log out, login as admin, and then fucking download it manually. christ, how fucking hard can it be? every other piece of software manages to update successfully from a standard account.

Java EE plans? Fix the swiss cheese security (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45965695)

The security track record for anything java-related is so bad that they make Microsoft look good.

Java isn't that big a program - for a company of Oracle's size & resources this isn't that hard.

Sit down & spend 4 months looking at the code and clean it up.

Maybe hire Theo de Raadt [wikipedia.org] for help :) He can be difficult to work with, but he doesn't compromise on secure coding practises.

What This Crap About Applets Not Working? (1)

LifesABeach (234436) | about 10 months ago | (#45965781)

Ah, can't get Applets to function without a bunch of nonsense? Is that a tear in Oracle's eye? Does Oracle want its mommy?

Re:What This Crap About Applets Not Working? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45967959)

Does anyone use JEE for applets?!

Re:What This Crap About Applets Not Working? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45969881)

/me raises hand

Yes. This is insane. I know. But it doesn't work otherwise. I don't know why. I don't want to know why.

CORBA ?!? Bloody hell. (1)

vikingpower (768921) | about 10 months ago | (#45966075)

I didn't know there was still CORBA support in Java EE. In 2014. Wow.

CORBAAAAA!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45966199)

I didn't know there was still CORBA support in Java EE. In 2014. Wow.

"Now you know. And knowing is half the battle."

Re:CORBAAAAA!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45966501)

G.I. JOSE!!!

Re:CORBA ?!? Bloody hell. (1)

techfilz (1881458) | about 10 months ago | (#45966747)

Thats why they are calling Java the New COBOL. Just not as cranky yet.

Re:CORBA ?!? Bloody hell. (2)

TheRealMindChild (743925) | about 10 months ago | (#45967191)

Why wouldn't there be? Sure, Windows has COM, but that doesn't help for other OS's. Is there some other language/OS agnostic object model that you think is better?

Re:CORBA ?!? Bloody hell. (1)

vikingpower (768921) | about 10 months ago | (#45968681)

Yep. REST. Not an "object model" as you require, but who cares ? I can tranfer state to another place in the network, and never care in what language and on what OS the endpoint runs. I just get a behaviour guarantee, which is enough. For sure, I don't even know what code is running to service my GET or PUT call. So what ?

The problem with CORBA was that it took a greatly skilled programmer to understand and use it, let alone implement new functionality with it. REST ? Just put any 22-year old diplomand at it, he'll get it going. As Antoine de Saint-Exupéry said ( about aircraft engines, in his days ): "Good technology can be judged good by the fact that you can forget it." CORBA one could never forget. REST is just there, and the programmer can turn to other, more interesting stuff.

Re:CORBA ?!? Bloody hell. (2)

TheRealMindChild (743925) | about 10 months ago | (#45968971)

REST is stateless. Also (as far as I know), works over HTTP. Java is plenty more than a web server platform. CORBA in java would allow one to consume an out of process object/server written in, say, Visual Basic or Lisp for all it matters, statefully, whether local or remote (think perhaps, a running service, or an instance of a document editor).

Real mature (5, Interesting)

RedBear (207369) | about 10 months ago | (#45966097)

So is Slashdot not capable of having any kind of informative conversation about one of the most commercially popular and long-lived everyday programming languages, because "Oracle, LOL" and "Java applets suck"?

Popped in here hoping to see some insightful discussion about the future of Java, to help inform my possible decision as to whether or not to spend a lot of time and effort becoming a Java developer. So far, sadly disappointed. Nothing but Java and Oracle jokes as old as the hills.

Then again, this is Slashdot. I don't know why I was expecting any kind of mature conversation about Java.

Re:Real mature (4, Interesting)

Nerdfest (867930) | about 10 months ago | (#45966355)

No kidding. I'd like to see the sort of syntax sugar that would cut the length of my classes source in half by generating setters and getters (perhaps via annotations like project Lombok does). There are a few other things of this sort that would vastly reduce the amount of boilerplate code.

Re:Real mature (1)

wbr1 (2538558) | about 10 months ago | (#45966365)

We've had too much coffee. Ba dum dum. Be here all day.

In all seriousness I think part of it is due to the facts that one, Oracle is not expected to actually pay attention and two, if they do, it won't be here that they listen to. They have their own channels.

Re:Real mature (2, Informative)

Vitriol+Angst (458300) | about 10 months ago | (#45966375)

Not pretending to be a JAVA expert, but maybe the lack of good advice, seriousness, and positive comments IS YOUR ANSWER. Unless a lot of Java devs show up on Slashdot with positive comments -- maybe that should be an indicator; "I'm better off with JavaScript and OpenCL".

The other "lesson" we could learn is maybe SlashDot is becoming Digg.

Please only follow this comment with insightful and serious debate.

Re:Real mature (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45966557)

I'm sure you've realized your mistake by stating "Please only follow this comment with insightful and serious debate."...

That's only an invitation for all the assholes and fucktards to come out of the woodwork...

Re:Real mature (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45968781)

There are languages people complain about and languages nobody uses.

With all the complaints we can see here Java has a very bright future.

Re:Real mature (1)

ZipprHead (106133) | about 10 months ago | (#45970049)

Maybe java developers are smart enough not to get into a debate on slashdot?

Re:Real mature (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45966619)

I'm not sure what you were expecting. They're mostly asking about EE, and most people don't know what EE offers outside of SE. In general Java 8 is so poorly marketed I couldn't tell you what their real goals are with it. 7 was mostly a recovery from Sun's collapse, and integrated in some long waiting multicore frameworks. 8 is an IDK what it is offering, and EE has always been a not for me.

Re:Real mature (2)

MrEricSir (398214) | about 10 months ago | (#45966649)

Popped in here hoping to see some insightful discussion about the future of Java, to help inform my possible decision as to whether or not to spend a lot of time and effort becoming a Java developer.

Java EE != Java.

Re:Real mature (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45966751)

The reason you are seeing this is because we all want Java to die and never come back.

It is a blemish on our industry.

Re:Real mature (0)

techfilz (1881458) | about 10 months ago | (#45966855)

If you become a Java developer you will lose your mind, quickly followed by your soul.

Re:Real mature (0)

Gravis Zero (934156) | about 10 months ago | (#45966927)

Yes, we can have mature conversation about Java.

1) Should become a Java developer? Consider all the hate so many people project at Java. Do you think people just hate it because it's so great? You dont get respect if dont act respectable.
2) Java keeps needlessly expanding and some parts get dropped.
3) Java is not a long-lived everyday programming language. Java showed up about the mid 1990s. C has been going strong since the early 1970s. C++ was an extension of C that came around in the 1980s.
3.1) How many programs do you have that are written in Java? The one's on your smartphone? Well, do you want to write those forever?
3.2) OSes are written in C and C++. [osdev.org]
3.3) You can go with C# but you will be stuck on Windows until MS decides to reinvent the wheel again and C and C++ will still be widely used.

Java: write once, slow everywhere.

Re:Real mature (3, Informative)

sid.the.technician (2797747) | about 10 months ago | (#45967079)

Could you enlighten me please, what is your language of choice for your next big project? Php, perl maybe? And I am talking about writing business logic, database access and soap communication. I hate Oracle with passion (because of their database product and pricing), but java (on servers, not some shitty applets) is in reality the only option when you want to write anything "business oriented".

Re:Real mature (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45967387)

Your analysis of C# is garbage. Mono is very very strong and still growing. Heck, Xamarin even rewrote Android a while back with Mono as an experiment to replace Java and got huge performance gains.

None of which has a thing to do with Microsoft.

Java is fast (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45967461)

Java is very fast, sometimes faster than C++.

http://www.azulsystems.com/blog/cliff/2009-09-06-java-vs-c-performanceagain

You may be referring to startup times which isn't an issue on the server.

Re:Real mature (4, Informative)

Wdomburg (141264) | about 10 months ago | (#45968161)

1) How many of the people who reflexivly project hate at Java have solid, defensible reasons for doing so? Do you think people form opinions based on evidence and thoughtful consideration?

2) Examples, please.

3) Well C is not a long-lived programming language, then. COBOL, FORTRAN and LISP have been going strong since the 1950's!

3.1) Plenty. Most of the applications on my phone runs Java (Android). My cable box (OCAP). My Blu-ray player (BD-J). Several of the applications I administer or use professionally (IntelliJ, Confluence, Jira, Zimbra, JMeter).

Just because you don't see it doesn't mean you don't use it. And even if you don't use doesn't mean other people don't use it. Java is an incredible pervasive language in the embedded and server space.

3.2) And?

3.3) With a twelve year history, multiple implementations and no hint of a successor, this strikes me as needless fear-mongering. Microsoft is proprietary, not fickle. Most of their standards have excellent longevity and they have far longer support cycles for their products than most of the Unix world.

As for performance, you're full of it. :)

Re:Real mature (1)

MtHuurne (602934) | about 10 months ago | (#45967007)

Well, I know the difference between the Enterprise Edition and applets, but the last time I did any work with Java EE was at the time EJB 2.0 was still new. All I can do is confirm that those interfaces required a lot of boilerplate to use: so much that we used JavaDoc plugins to generate the code for us. Someone told me that later Java EE versions are more usable, but I don't have personal experience with that; I spent the next few years doing a web app in Python instead.

Re:Real mature (1)

Bite The Pillow (3087109) | about 10 months ago | (#45967869)

The lack of mature commentary suggests that you stay away, if you care what Slashdot readers think. Reflect on that and become enlightened.

If you want help deciding whether to learn java, download eclipse and write hello world. If you don't immediately burn your house down to remove the taint of Satan's ide, maybe java is for you. Or Ask Slashdot, where you can be informed by the great geek collective about just how ignorantly neckbearded the idea is or isn't.
Also, you smell like farts and your nose looks oddly misshapen. And you're a booger.

Re:Real mature (0)

ByteSlicer (735276) | about 10 months ago | (#45968891)

So is Slashdot not capable of having any kind of informative conversation about one of the most commercially popular and long-lived everyday programming languages, because "Oracle, LOL" and "Java applets suck"?

Let's try. As a Java developer (among other things), I can say that I don't really care about Java EE (i.e. the enterprise features like JPA, EJB3).

It works for certain types of software, but in my experience, once you hit a certain complexity, you'll run into things that can't be solved with standard Java EE.

Then you'll usually drop down to the vendor implementation (JPA->Hibernate, EJB3->JBoss/Glassfish or whatever), and start using features that are not really standard.

Nowadays I just use Spring+Hibernate/JOOQ or similar frameworks for EE functionality. It requires a bit more setup work, but it allows much more flexibility when you want to do things that don't fit in the Java EE patterns. It's easier to mix and match different technologies with Spring, and you don't have to wait 5 years for an update in the standards, but you can use cutting edge technology instead.

Enterprise Java development also involves a lot of other technologies, like XML based template languages, JSON/XML web services, database queries for specific databases (JPA database transparency breaks down really quickly), JMS message broker configuration, enterprise bus configuration, web technologies (HTML, javascript, templating), etc. The Java coding part is sometimes only a small part of the whole. And you can often replace that with Scala or Groovy if you want.

I'd rather have some new core language features, like real getters/setters and the Elvis operator that was axed, those would make more difference in real life.

Re:Real mature (1)

Nivag064 (904744) | about 10 months ago | (#45970195)

I got into Java in the late 1990's. I started with FORTRAN & COBOL in the early 1970's, and have taught C to professional programmers...

I find Java the language I like most, but also just about the language I hate most!

For large projects that need to be scalable in terms of both complexity and workload - nothing beats Java, Java is King!

I use Java on Linux, so I don't use Oracle's version 'directly'.

If you want to get into Java, you will find plenty of work, provided you are competent, or have the gift of the gab!

So go for it, and damn the torpedoes!

Java is still popular? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45966267)

I haven't loaded too many java applets. The only applets that I can think of are Java based games.

I guess some web servers still use Java. It is a nice language. I found it slightly easier to learn than C++. I created a simple front-end database application with swing components in about a week or two. Don't get me started with Visual C++ MFC. lol. At least MS .net express (2005+) integrates nicely than the old studio versions.

At least the Java .class files can run on most computers without having to recompile the source code. ok, enough rambling from me.

Lets cut old stuff = No businesses will upgrade (2)

VGPowerlord (621254) | about 10 months ago | (#45966431)

Since JavaEE is a server application standard, cutting old stuff means that you can no longer run apps that still use said older features on a newer JavaEE server. So, expect everyone to continue using the crusty, old versions of JBoss (for example) or to have the server manufacturers outright ignore Oracle's changes to JavaEE 8.

Proper vectorization (1)

lorinc (2470890) | about 10 months ago | (#45966457)

All I'm asking for in Java 8 is the integration of vectorization instructions in the jvm. Please, do something for that >10x time factor compared to C++ with a compiler using correctly SSE/AVX instructions. I know most of the business doesn't care, but for the few who are still doing some computationally intensive processing (unrelated to databases btw), it is a game changer.

OpenACC, OpenCL and HSA? (1)

coder111 (912060) | about 10 months ago | (#45966653)

I think if you do computations, these things should help as well. As far as I know, they should be on Java roadmap somewhere already...

--Coder

Re:Proper vectorization (1)

Xrikcus (207545) | about 10 months ago | (#45966961)

Hopefully this will fall out nicely from the work they're doing on Sumatra/Graal. If they can generate independent streams of ALU work that suit GPU vector units they should be able to generate AVX/SSE code too. No need to concentrate on vectorising the entire application, which can be difficult given other aspects of the Java language, but just concentrate on using the stream APIs and related features that guarantee iteration independence.

Auto (1)

adiposity (684943) | about 10 months ago | (#45966673)

The auto keyword for declaring variables.

Re: Auto (1)

adiposity (684943) | about 10 months ago | (#45966741)

While you are at it, put it in regular java, too.

Re:BigNum (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45967975)

arbitrary precision arithmetic...

Turn out the lights (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45966841)

Will the last developer on Java please turn out the lights when s/he moves?
And then maybe s/he and the last Silverlight dev can go for coffee..

Re:Turn out the lights (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45969041)

And then maybe s/he and the last Silverlight dev can go for coffee..

Bad, bad idea! Imagine what would happen if they started dating and got a child...

We want them to stay as far away from each other as possible.

Java >> Scala (4, Interesting)

djbckr (673156) | about 10 months ago | (#45966917)

I've been programming in Java since it first came out, and I never had any particular problems with it, other than the fact that it's rather verbose. I've been thinking there must be a way to accomplish the same thing without so much boilerplate code. Then I discovered Scala [scala-lang.org] (which runs on the JVM and can easily integrate with existing Java libraries).

Mind you there are some things about Scala that are kinda weird, like so much optional syntax and type inferencing makes it sometimes hard to read. But I've been finding it a joy for new code I write, almost Java-like but much less verbose, plus you get the functional programming capabilities that Java lacks. Some of the library code that's out there is hard to understand because of the nature of the syntax, but after you study it a bit, it's not too bad.

Re:Java Scala (3, Interesting)

bagman1673 (1120469) | about 10 months ago | (#45968505)

I've been programming in Java since it first came out, and I never had any particular problems with it, other than the fact that it's rather verbose. I've been thinking there must be a way to accomplish the same thing without so much boilerplate code. Then I discovered Scala [scala-lang.org] (which runs on the JVM and can easily integrate with existing Java libraries). Mind you there are some things about Scala that are kinda weird, like so much optional syntax and type inferencing makes it sometimes hard to read. But I've been finding it a joy for new code I write, almost Java-like but much less verbose, plus you get the functional programming capabilities that Java lacks. Some of the library code that's out there is hard to understand because of the nature of the syntax, but after you study it a bit, it's not too bad.

For those of us old enough to remember, Java is, in fact, the new COBOL. COBOL, like Java, was the language of choice for software engineers of a bygone era (the 1970's), and suffered from a similar verbosity, clumsy syntax, and prevalence of boiler-plate code (substitute copylibs for jars and you are halfway there). I wrote COBOL for a living for decades and never, ever, coded most of the mandatory code sections.

When I was engaged in my first enterprise level Java project (a JBoss app), I was amazed at the similarities between the two languages. Despite the fact that the syntax and structure are completely different we have the same slavish devotion to form and "correctness". Of course, most people alive and writing code now are completely unaware of this, having never encountered COBOL in an enterprise environment.

Not saying this is a bad thing. Just saying. COBOL was also more or less controlled by one company, and that company was IBM due to the IBM's complete dominance of the mainframe market.

Re:Java Scala (1)

Nivag064 (904744) | about 10 months ago | (#45970239)

Have you had a look at http://ceylon-lang.org/ [ceylon-lang.org] ?

I've been tempted to get into Ceylon, it runs in both the JVM & JavaScript Engines.

I think Red Hat are positioning it to replace Java in the long term...

Fix first (1)

Cmdr-Absurd (780125) | about 10 months ago | (#45966945)

I'd be happy if they concentrated their efforts on fixing the seemingly never-ending parade of security holes in the 6 and 7 before they move on to 8.

Re:Fix first (1)

Robert Saulnier (2957373) | about 10 months ago | (#45967379)

Java (SE) 8 is coming out in March.

Dear Oracle, (1)

Gravis Zero (934156) | about 10 months ago | (#45966983)

My Darling Oracle,
Please add as many bells and whistles as you can, throw in all the experimental features that are poorly tested and don't worry about security. If you would be so kind to do this, everyone would finally agree to uninstall Java and never ever use it again. You have sabotaged all the other things you have bought so why not Java? Come on, you know you want to.

Love,
Every Server Admin Ever

Re:Dear Oracle, (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45967363)

Claps!

Re:Dear Oracle, (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45968273)

Why not Zoidberg?

everyone's on the same page here (1)

slashmydots (2189826) | about 10 months ago | (#45967407)

Don't make a Java web plugin with it. That's everyone everywhere's advice.

Thanks for your comment! (1)

achbed (97139) | about 10 months ago | (#45967641)

We at Oracle care about you and your data. Thank you for taking this opportunity to comment on . We will take your concerns into account, and will address them in our next release of the circular file.

Advice: No, don't do it!!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45969201)

Oracle - Stop NOW! PLEASE, JUST STOP!!!! The world of developers can't take any more over-engineered frameworks. J2EE is already an abomination. It's inhumanly complex as it is. Has anyone stopped and just considered the average J2EE program?

HTML + CSS + JavaScript + jQuery on the presentation layer, probably using AJAX. CSS and JavaScript have bizarrely different syntaxes, down to the , and ; placement.

JSP, JSTL, EL, and template languages and whatever other crud to emit the presentation layer. JSON, SOAP, and whatever else to emit the AJAX stuff. If you do it right, you can hide a lot of the emitting code behind a layer of tag obfuscation (at the expense of adding another language) but you still have meta-layers in the same file - is a line of a file emitting something, or is it what's being emitted?

Some sort of MVC thing - Struts, Spring MVC, or whatever - for workflow.

Layer after layer after layer of object model, Hibernate/JPA/whatever database access, JDBC drivers, SQL, and whatever else. Legacy interfaces.

Testing? JUnit, Jenkins, and scripts. Build? Ant, Maven. Source? SVN, Git - there seem to be several of everything to choose from, and every project picks something else.

This thing is collapsing under its own complexity. No one can keep this much stuff in their heads anymore. Just stop it NOW!

Please.

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